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Old 03-03-2010, 09:16   #16
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past pirate wars?

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Originally Posted by cantxsailor View Post
As has be proven in past pirate wars if you kill all the pirates, pirateing goes down in frequency due to a)lack of replacement pirates or b) remaining would be pirates get the idea that being a pirate is a poor career choice.
Are you talking about the Barbary wars here? Probably not, since they did not "kill all the pirates." Indeed, if I recall the actual history, naval forces were unable to engage directly with the pirate ships, and had to settle for attacks on the cities from which the pirates were based. And this proved to be such an unsuccessful strategy that after the first Barbary war the navy had to engage in a second Barbary war.

Regardless, it's hard to imagine, in this historical situation, there being a lack of replacement pirates.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:33   #17
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More Vikings

We in Sweden do not want to be left in the shadow of our neighbour Denmark.....

The Swedish Government decided to send an all new and hyper modern Coastguard aircraft to do service in Somalia for the comming months starting now in March.

They will be patrolling the high seas from Somalia to the Seyshelles.

This is really an EC operation called "Atalanta" with units from different EC countries.

I do agree that it is about time to put an end to pirate activities all over the world.
The most effective way is probably to strike against the pirates on land destroying all vessels involved in these activities.

From a cruisers point of view I belive the most effective way of minimising the likelyhood of an attack would be to go in a convoy.

Anyone with an idea on how it would be possible to identify the pirate vessels and transmit this to relevant authorities?

Rgds

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Old 03-03-2010, 09:46   #18
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Anyone with an idea on how it would be possible to identify the pirate vessels and transmit this to relevant authorities?

Rgds

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If they are not carrying bona fide documents for any freight, or not carrying bait, fishing gear or other genuine equipment related to honestly being in that location, they should be treated as pirates. They are organised enough to send out ransom messages, they should be able to receive warnings.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:54   #19
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I always look for the "Jolly Roger" ensign. Barring that the eye patch, with the parrot on the shoulder and hollering "avast!" a lot is usually a dead give away.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:59   #20
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I don't know why some people think the solution is so simple. In 2008 the Indian navy was able to follow two pirate boarding vessels to a mother ship. When the mother ship threaten to fire on the naval vessel if it approached the Indian vessel sunk the pirate vessel. Only thing is it turned out not to a pirate vessel but a Thai fishing vessel they had taken and 16 Thai sailors were still on board.

Most of the time they don't catch the mothership and it's a small boat not worth sinking that is captured. If you take the pirates in Somalian waters and try to prosecute them you have an international headache so they take the weapons and release them. If you kill them when they've surrendered you have an even bigger headache. If they throw away the rule of law is that actually going to make you feel safer? The world isn't at war with Somalia.

People find fault with the insurance companies for negotiating the release of ships and crew but if they don't who's going to go to sea? The UN has suggestd that the shipping companies take more measures for the safety of the boats and of course they should.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:08   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
If they are not carrying bona fide documents for any freight, or not carrying bait, fishing gear or other genuine equipment related to honestly being in that location, they should be treated as pirates.
Didn't you just describe a cruiser? By the tme the victim has figured out they are pirates it's too late. Usually they are in small fishing boats and when they are approached by aircraft or seacraft that are checking their intentions they dump their weapons. There is a lot of little fishing boats out there.

I would suggest it's their behaviour that distinguishes them. If you are being rapidly approached by another vessel in the sea of Aman call for help.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:10   #22
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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
I always look for the "Jolly Roger" ensign. Barring that the eye patch, with the parrot on the shoulder and hollering "avast!" a lot is usually a dead give away.
Aye, Cap'n! I'll git one in her stern yet.

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Old 03-03-2010, 10:41   #23
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Should have blown them out of the water including the crew...Duh!
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:04   #24
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If a fishing vessle was stupid enough to challenge and threaten a naval warship, they got what they deserved and as it turned out, quite rightly so.
Sink em all with no trace. No messing about with courts, no letting them go to do it again, no prisoners to feed and give humanity to. Once they are gone, they cannot come back.

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
I don't know why some people think the solution is so simple. In 2008 the Indian navy was able to follow two pirate boarding vessels to a mother ship. When the mother ship threaten to fire on the naval vessel if it approached the Indian vessel sunk the pirate vessel. Only thing is it turned out not to a pirate vessel but a Thai fishing vessel they had taken and 16 Thai sailors were still on board.

Most of the time they don't catch the mothership and it's a small boat not worth sinking that is captured. If you take the pirates in Somalian waters and try to prosecute them you have an international headache so they take the weapons and release them. If you kill them when they've surrendered you have an even bigger headache. If they throw away the rule of law is that actually going to make you feel safer? The world isn't at war with Somalia.

People find fault with the insurance companies for negotiating the release of ships and crew but if they don't who's going to go to sea? The UN has suggestd that the shipping companies take more measures for the safety of the boats and of course they should.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:20   #25
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Quote:
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If a fishing vessle was stupid enough to challenge and threaten a naval warship, they got what they deserved and as it turned out, quite rightly so.
Sink em all with no trace. No messing about with courts, no letting them go to do it again, no prisoners to feed and give humanity to. Once they are gone, they cannot come back.
It was a fishing vessel that had been commandeered by pirates with a captive crew. They got what what they deserve? How did they earn a death sentence? Do you feel better knowing the children of innocent fisherman are without their source of support? The 16 were innocent fishermen being held hostage by pirates!
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:31   #26
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Sink the pirates obviously not the fishermen silly!!
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:14   #27
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Like I said, "The inability to make hard, bloody decisions". The other option is obvious. Arm the ships and allow them the option of defending themselves or not. If the bad guys are unsure of who is armed and who isn't they will be less likely to attempt to take on these ships.

A few bad guys not returning "might" change the game. I personally feel the "youtubing" of a couple of brutal anti piracy opps would be a game changer. Word travels fast in the underworld and just because these skinnies come from a relative **** hole of the world doesn't mean they are without the internet.

Unfortunately "we" are governed by a bunch of hand wringing appeasers that make the last bunch of appeasers look like they had some balls.

Our western system of laws mostly works because most of "us" abide by those laws. When the bad guys are not afraid of the consequences of the legal system the only other method of keeping them at bay becomes bloody.

It ain't pretty but it is what it is..........m
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:40   #28
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Monty Python says it best:
"Oh, I like to be a pirate, a pirate's life for me.
All my friends are pirates and they sail the b.b. sea.
I've got a Jolly Roger, it's a black and white and vast.
So get out of your skull and crossbones
And I'll run it up your mast.

With a yo-ho-ho and a ah-ha-ha and a hee-hee-ha-ha-ho.
A yo-ho-ho and a ya-ha-ha and a yum-yum jum-jum-jum.
I've got a Jolly Roger, it's a black and white and vast.
So get out of your skull and crossbones
I'll run it up your mast.

All together!

I like to be a pirate, a pirate's life for me.
And all my friends are pirates and sail the b.b. sea.
Got a Jolly Roger, it's a black and white and vast.
So get out of your skull and crossbones
I'll run it up your mast.

Oo-ee!

With a yo-ho-ho and a ah-ha-ha and a hee-hee-ha-ha-ho.
A yo-ho-ho and a ya-ha-ha and a yum-yum jum-jum-jum.
I've got a Jolly Roger, it's a black and white and vast.
So get out of your skull and crossbones
I'll run it up your mast.

A one more time!

I like to be a pirate, a pirate's life for me.
And all my friends are pirates and they sail the b.b. sea.
Got a Jolly Roger, it's a black and white and vast.
So get out of your skull and crossbones
I'll run it up your mast."
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:55   #29
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Simple? no not in our time!

In spite of better judgement I do have to post this..

I do agree with Hummingways approach that no matter how bad we must follow the legal course of action.

The hang them high approach would only lead to new problems and must be avoided at almost any cost.
If I was a captive of one of the pirates I would love the thought of that they had more to loose in killing me than not to.
The same thing is true in any negotiation - do not play your final card until you are sure you want to be totally comitted and really a " victim of circumstance" now out of your control.

I belive that you of course are entiteled to defend yourself and
your property when so warranted by the situation but,- human life should to the extent possible never by jeopardized ( more a statement of my standing from a morale and belive point of view rather than a cold logic one)

What I was thinking about when posting:

"Anyone with an idea on how it would be possible to identify the pirate vessels and transmit this to relevant authorities?"

was a reflection on that we need something to be able to solve the problem of bringing the pirates to court.

( The question on what court and what punishment is entirely an another question.)

I belive that if the pirates were aware of that they were identified when comitting the crime and that it really only is a matter of time until they would have to face the music we would hopefully be able to see a shift in the negative trend we have experianced so far.

What I am thinking of is probably a technological solutions in identifying the pirate vessels and the individiuals on board the vessels.

The problem from "an above" perspective could probably be solved by a sattelite or radar surveillance but the close in problem must likely be solved by photos and sound registrations that later could be used by an International court.

The other side of the immediate problem facing us when attacked or belived to be close to an attack I belive must be sorted under unavoidable defence and the awnsers to:

Is it possible (when sailing in a convoy) to have a way of escalating our defences?
Is it possible by simple means to dissable any threat without sinking it?

Is it possible to have the underwriters we all pay a lot of money each year in insurance money to on a global scale cooperate and organise both the equipement and operating procedures to have this threat being less of a reallity the comming years?

Can we borrow or rent the neccesery eqpmt ( including weapons and training in the use thereof) when entering an area troubled by this sort of things?

I do really think it is fantastic that we ( the global community) 2010 accept that a relatively small amout of poorly equiped individuals kick us around like this regardless if we sail our small yachts or a big multimillion dollar merchant ship in some parts of the world.

I belive in that it is possible to minimise this threat given that the international community cooperate and that we all follow a well thought thru and coordinated approach.

( Battering down for your thoughts and replies but I do belive it is time to take a collective approach on this one!!)

Rgds

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Old 03-03-2010, 14:19   #30
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The UN has reccommended that commercial vessels put armed gaurds on board but they don't seem to be doing that and I presume it is because of cost. I suspect that insurance underwriters aren't losing much from pleasure craft so even if a convoy may not get much help from them on that front. That leaves governments. If groups were to propose tracking measures for convoys through the guld of Aman it might be well recieved by some of the forces there already. It would reduce response time if they knew location and if there was a panic button available. However it wouldn't take many false deployments to sour them to the idea. The cost of response is not insignificant when you look at the equipment being used.
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