Mutiny?

Connemara · 27-03-2008, 19:43

My stepson in Kiwiland sent me this piece from the New Zealand Herald.

On the face of it, it looks as if the crew panicked a bit, but the vessel wasn't as well-maintained as it might have been. Most revealing comment may the chopper pilot who thought that with good seamanship all would have been well.

Thoughts?

What about our Kiwis? What were the conditions like? Was the crew justified?

(from the NZ Herald)

A maritime rescue involving two helicopters at a cost of more than $20,000 was caused because three crew members "mutinied" against their more experienced skipper.
Crew on Auckland's Westpac rescue helicopter were endangered during the callout because the yacht was further away than an emergency locator beacon initially showed.
The Northland Electricity rescue helicopter had to be called in to winch the group to safety from about 120km off the Kaipara coast because the Westpac machine had reached its fuel limitations and had to return to Auckland.
Questions have been raised over the necessity of the rescue, which has most likely ended a long friendship.
Nelson man Carl Horn told the Herald he was helping his friend Bill Heritage take his 7.9m sloop, Air Apparent, from Auckland to Nelson, going around Cape Reinga.
He was assisted by his friends John Lammin and Sharan Foga, who met Mr Heritage shortly before the trip.
Mr Horn, an organiser for the National Distribution Union and a friend of Mr Heritage for 26 years, said the group, all from Nelson, had been enjoying smooth sailing until the weather began closing in on Monday about midday.

The Coastguard reported 3m swells and 20-knot winds. By Tuesday afternoon, conditions had deteriorated and seas were rough.
Fatigued, seasick and becoming worried for their safety, the group began discussing their options.
"Bill was of the opinion that we weren't in serious enough trouble to warrant a beacon [but] ... I have great doubts we would have survived Tuesday night," Mr Horn said.
The trio went against the skipper's wishes and set off the emergency locator beacon at 3.22pm."We mutinied, as he put it," said Mr Horn.
"Things got out of hand as the storm got worse. The seas were rising. The motor didn't work. We couldn't get the motor started - the battery had died and when we tried the crank that didn't work.
"All the instrumentation had died before we got picked up. The radio wasn't working, we couldn't reach land, we couldn't communicate with anybody, we were on our own.
"And when we were at the point we had to put out the sea anchor to protect ourselves, it was incomplete."
Mr Heritage, an accountant, was last night reluctant to say much about his ordeal but said his boat had been valued at $24,000 two years ago and he was looking into options for finding it at sea and retrieving it.
"I feel that their actions caused the loss of the boat," he said.
The cost of the callout exceeded $20,000 and Northland Electricity helicopter chief pilot Pete Turnbull said he believed it could have been avoided.
"From my position it didn't appear entirely necessary to evacuate the yacht. It would appear that with good seamanship, the yacht could have easily ridden out the conditions."
Westpac's chief pilot, Dave Walley, said the group was using an outdated emergency locator beacon, which was not as accurate as newer models.
Asked if the helicopter crew were angry about the callout, Mr Walley said: "If we get a call for help, we're going to answer that call - that's our first obligation. It's not our job to pass judgment."
Mr Horn said he, Mr Lammin and Ms Foga all had some sailing experience, but were relying on Mr Heritage, who had owned the boat for 15 years.
The group were "extremely distressed and sorry" that Mr Heritage had to abandon his boat because it would not have been safe for him to remain on it alone.
"I would not be surprised if he never speaks to me again," Mr Horn said. "He was extremely upset, shocked, shattered."
Mr Horn said he was "extremely grateful" to Westpac.
"My adrenaline has not yet gone down to level. The room that I am sitting in is still rolling slightly. I'm pretty well together, but I think it's fair to say that I'm pretty shaken up by the whole experience.
"I'm still shivering when I think about it."
Maritime New Zealand is issuing navigational warnings on maritime radio to warn other vessels about the abandoned yacht, telling them to watch out for it.
It says any salvage or recovery is the responsibility of Mr Heritage.

**Pblais** · 27-03-2008, 20:19

Quote:

Most revealing comment may the chopper pilot who thought that with good seamanship all would have been well.

To read the quote seems as if the writer was looking for a story that didn't happen. To portray the story as mutiny seems a bit far fetched. Mutiny is a military term for military captains and courts of inquiry in times of war. Lets all conduct a courts marshall and decide the guilty with no evidence of our own save the story as written.

Hang the crew or condem the captain? Internet specualtion at it's highest!

GordMay · 28-03-2008, 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pblais

To read the quote seems as if the writer was looking for a story that didn't happen. To portray the story as mutiny seems a bit far fetched. Mutiny is a military term for military captains and courts of inquiry in times of war. Lets all conduct a courts marshall and decide the guilty with no evidence of our own save the story as written.
Hang the crew or condemn the captain? Internet speculation at it's highest!

It doesn’t appear, to me, that the journalist “was looking for a story that didn't happen”; although he took full advantage of a melodramatic quote.

"Bill [owner captain] was of the opinion that we weren't in serious enough trouble to warrant a beacon [but] ... I have great doubts we would have survived Tuesday night," Mr Horn said.
The trio [mutinous crew] went against the skipper's wishes and set off the emergency locator beacon at 3.22pm."We mutinied, as he put it," said Mr Horn.

Speculation? Of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxlev

... I would have told the crew to get on the chopper and sod off, batten down the hatches and ride it out.
What a bunch of pussys.

Most rescue organizations won’t remove “part” of a crew; under the principle that he vessel (and conditions) is either safe or unsafe for all aboard.

Alan Wheeler · 27-03-2008, 21:09

There is a great deal of important information missing, so trying to pass judgement is not fair. What exactly were the weather and sea conditions? What was the forcast? Where exactly were they when they set of the EPIRB?
The Coastline of NZ is trecherous. Once you start a voyage, you are often commited to it as there are few places to run and hide. The West Coast of NZ would be the worst. In the wrong conditions it can be miserable and trecherouse. There is nowhere to run to and the sea's can be extremely ruff and uncomfortable. To travel from Cape Reinga to Nelson, you progressively get further and further from land. You are ruffly 100Nm at one point. A 26ft boat would feel mighty small out there. However, if it was a well found boat, it should certainly be possible.
My view is that I suspect that the crew was not up to the task and the Skipper was. Having said that, no one should tackle these sorts of legs without having thoroughly checked all safety equipment and fitted what is required. Which makes me wonder then if the Skipper was indeed capable.
However, not having a compleate sea anchor is not the end of the world. There are many other things that can be thrown over and dragged to make a drogue. But once seasickness and fear set in, you just simply want off at any cost.
Hence one of the reasons we have to have Cat1 requirments. If Cat2 was required as law, this boat would have had all the equipment required for such a leg. I am glad it is not required by law, but I would not attempt that leg without my boat being upto a Cat2 requirment.

Hey Seafox and Marauder are about to do a yacht delivery taking this route. They are going the other direction which may make it a little easier and the time of the year should help with better weather options.

Connemara · 28-03-2008, 15:46

Wheels, any idea why would they take that route? They were going, the story suggests, from Auckland to Nelson.

Strikes me it would be a lot easier and shorter to go down the east coast around the East Cape and past Hawkes Bay. Lots of nice places to hide from weather, too.

Did the compass go first?

Or is this some sort of Kiwi rite of passage? Sail almost entirely around the North Island?

Connemara

seafox · 28-03-2008, 15:57

the east route is approx 120NM longer. I have measured it on the chart. It is deceptive as it "looks" shorter. The Wairarapa Coast and East cape can be bad. There is no easy way home.

**GMac** · 28-03-2008, 00:10

Been looking at that story a bit today and it's just a shambles really. It wasn't that windy only 25ish. The skipper didn't seem massively experienced but did know something. The crew knew next to nothing and started to panic a bit by the looks. The Skipper got off as well saying it was too dangerous to stay by himself and is now sueing the crew. All a bit of a mickey mouse affair really.

Just a simple case of no-one being well prepared, inexperienced crew feeling crook and not realising it wasn't 'bad' weather.

It's not a registered ship and being NZers inside NZ territorial waters it can't be a mutiny, technically. Just a bog standard cock-up all around that should never have happened if someone thought things through a bit better.

maxlev · 28-03-2008, 01:27

The skipper was interviewed on the box this evening and said the conditions were ideal sailing conditions, but a bit lumpy in the 3 metre swell with 25 knots from an ideal direction.
Having owned the yacht for 15yrs he would have had enough experience I would have thought. But seems his crew expected it would be smooth sailing all the way.
It's too easy to give up and get off these days, and to find retrieve the yacht is not economic for the skipper.
I would have told the crew to get on the chopper and sod off, batten down the hatches and ride it out.
What a bunch of pussys.

seafox · 28-03-2008, 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxlev

The skipper was interviewed on the box this evening and said the conditions were ideal sailing conditions, but a bit lumpy in the 3 metre swell with 25 knots from an ideal direction.
Having owned the yacht for 15yrs he would have had enough experience I would have thought. But seems his crew expected it would be smooth sailing all the way.
It's too easy to give up and get off these days, and to find retrieve the yacht is not economic for the skipper.
I would have told the crew to get on the chopper and sod off, batten down the hatches and ride it out.
What a bunch of pussys.

Yep, I agree

MarkJ · 28-03-2008, 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxlev

batten down the hatches and ride it out.
What a bunch of pussys.

Torkin about pussys, why are'nt you kiwi mob out there on a bit of a salvage hunt. Value of boat 2 years ago $24,000 New Zealand Paesos = US$19,300. Less a bit of damage of $300 = $19,000 x Salvage ownership 90% = $17,100. Less $100 for beer... Total finders fee US$17,000
Not bad for a few days autumn sailing in NZ.

**GMac** · 28-03-2008, 01:45

Hey, Maxlev you the new owner or do you need to change the boats details on your profile?. Do I hear a "Who the and how the hell....?" off your boat about now

We are everywhere and watching......... even you

And you absolutely right with your above post. Especially the last 3 lines.

maxlev · 28-03-2008, 03:14

Yes, I am the current owner of this very well travelled kauri log.
Goes like the clappers too for a 38yr old log.
Prised it from Grahame & Lynnes hands 3 months ago.
Loitering around the coast on a long lazy holiday.
The Monitor won't hit the panic button so no need for crew.
http://www.hunterproductions.co.nz/images/news4_lg.jpg

Another yacht was abandoned off the Kaipara Harbour coast a couple of yrs ago.
Hit a sleeping whale, knee deep water in the hull.
But it was one of them unsinkable Newick tri's.
Some fishermen towed it to Raglan for the insurers to deal with.
Don't know if it was repaired to sail again, but like I said, it's too easy these days to hit the panic button and get off.

Grin and bear it or sell it.

**GMac** · 29-03-2008, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxlev

Yes, I am the current owner of this very well travelled kauri log.
Goes like the clappers too for a 38yr old log.
Prised it from Grahame & Lynnes hands 3 months ago.

Nice score, a mighty fine proven beast. I was speaking to Graham just last week and he said he's scored a Davidson. I know the boat and was sad to hear it had been neglected but happy to see it is now in G & L's fine hands. I noticed your profile thingy hence the question.

Yes, the Scott thing. I just had a cruise of your site, nice work. I'm also one who thought things never stacked up quite right with all of that.

New thread go here

Panama Dave · 28-03-2008, 07:11

We always have freinds volunteer to go along when my wife and I do long offshore pasages and we always turn them down for just this reason. If someone panics and wants off the boat while you're "out there" the captain's decision must be the law, and the captain must accept the consequnces if he makes the wrong decision.

rtbates · 28-03-2008, 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connemara

The radio wasn't working, we couldn't reach land, we couldn't communicate with anybody, we were on our own.

No wonder they jump ship! Imagine sailing offshore and BEING ON YOUR OWN.

How scary...

This story is exactly why I tell new sailors to be sure to get out in a good blow BEFORE they sell the house to sail around the world. Some folks just don't have a clue what the ocean can dish up.

27-03-2008, 19:43	#1
Connemara Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Boat: Mirage 27 Connemara Posts: 337	Mutiny? My stepson in Kiwiland sent me this piece from the New Zealand Herald. On the face of it, it looks as if the crew panicked a bit, but the vessel wasn't as well-maintained as it might have been. Most revealing comment may the chopper pilot who thought that with good seamanship all would have been well. Thoughts? What about our Kiwis? What were the conditions like? Was the crew justified? (from the NZ Herald) A maritime rescue involving two helicopters at a cost of more than $20,000 was caused because three crew members "mutinied" against their more experienced skipper. Crew on Auckland's Westpac rescue helicopter were endangered during the callout because the yacht was further away than an emergency locator beacon initially showed. The Northland Electricity rescue helicopter had to be called in to winch the group to safety from about 120km off the Kaipara coast because the Westpac machine had reached its fuel limitations and had to return to Auckland. Questions have been raised over the necessity of the rescue, which has most likely ended a long friendship. Nelson man Carl Horn told the Herald he was helping his friend Bill Heritage take his 7.9m sloop, Air Apparent, from Auckland to Nelson, going around Cape Reinga. He was assisted by his friends John Lammin and Sharan Foga, who met Mr Heritage shortly before the trip. Mr Horn, an organiser for the National Distribution Union and a friend of Mr Heritage for 26 years, said the group, all from Nelson, had been enjoying smooth sailing until the weather began closing in on Monday about midday. The Coastguard reported 3m swells and 20-knot winds. By Tuesday afternoon, conditions had deteriorated and seas were rough. Fatigued, seasick and becoming worried for their safety, the group began discussing their options. "Bill was of the opinion that we weren't in serious enough trouble to warrant a beacon [but] ... I have great doubts we would have survived Tuesday night," Mr Horn said. The trio went against the skipper's wishes and set off the emergency locator beacon at 3.22pm."We mutinied, as he put it," said Mr Horn. "Things got out of hand as the storm got worse. The seas were rising. The motor didn't work. We couldn't get the motor started - the battery had died and when we tried the crank that didn't work. "All the instrumentation had died before we got picked up. The radio wasn't working, we couldn't reach land, we couldn't communicate with anybody, we were on our own. "And when we were at the point we had to put out the sea anchor to protect ourselves, it was incomplete." Mr Heritage, an accountant, was last night reluctant to say much about his ordeal but said his boat had been valued at $24,000 two years ago and he was looking into options for finding it at sea and retrieving it. "I feel that their actions caused the loss of the boat," he said. The cost of the callout exceeded $20,000 and Northland Electricity helicopter chief pilot Pete Turnbull said he believed it could have been avoided. "From my position it didn't appear entirely necessary to evacuate the yacht. It would appear that with good seamanship, the yacht could have easily ridden out the conditions." Westpac's chief pilot, Dave Walley, said the group was using an outdated emergency locator beacon, which was not as accurate as newer models. Asked if the helicopter crew were angry about the callout, Mr Walley said: "If we get a call for help, we're going to answer that call - that's our first obligation. It's not our job to pass judgment." Mr Horn said he, Mr Lammin and Ms Foga all had some sailing experience, but were relying on Mr Heritage, who had owned the boat for 15 years. The group were "extremely distressed and sorry" that Mr Heritage had to abandon his boat because it would not have been safe for him to remain on it alone. "I would not be surprised if he never speaks to me again," Mr Horn said. "He was extremely upset, shocked, shattered." Mr Horn said he was "extremely grateful" to Westpac. "My adrenaline has not yet gone down to level. The room that I am sitting in is still rolling slightly. I'm pretty well together, but I think it's fair to say that I'm pretty shaken up by the whole experience. "I'm still shivering when I think about it." Maritime New Zealand is issuing navigational warnings on maritime radio to warn other vessels about the abandoned yacht, telling them to watch out for it. It says any salvage or recovery is the responsibility of Mr Heritage.

27-03-2008, 21:09	#4
Alan Wheeler Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady Posts: 8,042	There is a great deal of important information missing, so trying to pass judgement is not fair. What exactly were the weather and sea conditions? What was the forcast? Where exactly were they when they set of the EPIRB? The Coastline of NZ is trecherous. Once you start a voyage, you are often commited to it as there are few places to run and hide. The West Coast of NZ would be the worst. In the wrong conditions it can be miserable and trecherouse. There is nowhere to run to and the sea's can be extremely ruff and uncomfortable. To travel from Cape Reinga to Nelson, you progressively get further and further from land. You are ruffly 100Nm at one point. A 26ft boat would feel mighty small out there. However, if it was a well found boat, it should certainly be possible. My view is that I suspect that the crew was not up to the task and the Skipper was. Having said that, no one should tackle these sorts of legs without having thoroughly checked all safety equipment and fitted what is required. Which makes me wonder then if the Skipper was indeed capable. However, not having a compleate sea anchor is not the end of the world. There are many other things that can be thrown over and dragged to make a drogue. But once seasickness and fear set in, you just simply want off at any cost. Hence one of the reasons we have to have Cat1 requirments. If Cat2 was required as law, this boat would have had all the equipment required for such a leg. I am glad it is not required by law, but I would not attempt that leg without my boat being upto a Cat2 requirment. Hey Seafox and Marauder are about to do a yacht delivery taking this route. They are going the other direction which may make it a little easier and the time of the year should help with better weather options. __________________ Wheels For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.

28-03-2008, 15:57	#6
seafox Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: new zealand Boat: Lotus 10.6 Posts: 1,264	the east route is approx 120NM longer. I have measured it on the chart. It is deceptive as it "looks" shorter. The Wairarapa Coast and East cape can be bad. There is no easy way home. __________________ "Very well, you hand it over and we'll put your town to our rudder and ne'er return" Captain Barbossa, Black Pearl, Pirates of the Caribbean.

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28-03-2008, 15:46	#5
Connemara Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Boat: Mirage 27 Connemara Posts: 337	Wheels, any idea why would they take that route? They were going, the story suggests, from Auckland to Nelson. Strikes me it would be a lot easier and shorter to go down the east coast around the East Cape and past Hawkes Bay. Lots of nice places to hide from weather, too. Did the compass go first? Or is this some sort of Kiwi rite of passage? Sail almost entirely around the North Island? Connemara

28-03-2008, 00:10	#7
GMac Moderator Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully Boat: R930 Posts: 1,477	Been looking at that story a bit today and it's just a shambles really. It wasn't that windy only 25ish. The skipper didn't seem massively experienced but did know something. The crew knew next to nothing and started to panic a bit by the looks. The Skipper got off as well saying it was too dangerous to stay by himself and is now sueing the crew. All a bit of a mickey mouse affair really. Just a simple case of no-one being well prepared, inexperienced crew feeling crook and not realising it wasn't 'bad' weather. It's not a registered ship and being NZers inside NZ territorial waters it can't be a mutiny, technically. Just a bog standard cock-up all around that should never have happened if someone thought things through a bit better.

28-03-2008, 01:27	#8
maxlev Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: sea level NZ Boat: Lidgard 38 Minaret Posts: 20	The skipper was interviewed on the box this evening and said the conditions were ideal sailing conditions, but a bit lumpy in the 3 metre swell with 25 knots from an ideal direction. Having owned the yacht for 15yrs he would have had enough experience I would have thought. But seems his crew expected it would be smooth sailing all the way. It's too easy to give up and get off these days, and to find retrieve the yacht is not economic for the skipper. I would have told the crew to get on the chopper and sod off, batten down the hatches and ride it out. What a bunch of pussys.

28-03-2008, 01:45	#11
GMac Moderator Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully Boat: R930 Posts: 1,477	Hey, Maxlev you the new owner or do you need to change the boats details on your profile?. Do I hear a "Who the and how the hell....?" off your boat about now We are everywhere and watching......... even you And you absolutely right with your above post. Especially the last 3 lines.

28-03-2008, 03:14	#12
maxlev Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: sea level NZ Boat: Lidgard 38 Minaret Posts: 20	Yes, I am the current owner of this very well travelled kauri log. Goes like the clappers too for a 38yr old log. Prised it from Grahame & Lynnes hands 3 months ago. Loitering around the coast on a long lazy holiday. The Monitor won't hit the panic button so no need for crew. http://www.hunterproductions.co.nz/images/news4_lg.jpg Another yacht was abandoned off the Kaipara Harbour coast a couple of yrs ago. Hit a sleeping whale, knee deep water in the hull. But it was one of them unsinkable Newick tri's. Some fishermen towed it to Raglan for the insurers to deal with. Don't know if it was repaired to sail again, but like I said, it's too easy these days to hit the panic button and get off. Grin and bear it or sell it.

28-03-2008, 07:11	#14
Panama Dave Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Galveston bay Boat: S2 11.0A Posts: 73	We always have freinds volunteer to go along when my wife and I do long offshore pasages and we always turn them down for just this reason. If someone panics and wants off the boat while you're "out there" the captain's decision must be the law, and the captain must accept the consequnces if he makes the wrong decision.