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Old 05-11-2010, 15:30   #46
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The sad fact is that one of these days one of these overzealous potty police is going to get himself killed. We hear stories all the time about these guys boarding boats in the middle of the night and rousting the owners out of bed. One of these days they're going to come upon a legally armed owner that doesn't hear them identify themselves as police (might be hard to hear clearly what's being said on the stern from a vee berth) and all they're going to see is a silhouette of an armed man in the companion way and shoot first. Then they're going to try to blame the boater. Something like this happened a couple of years back in or near Orlando. A drug team raided the wrong house and the owner thought the police, who were doing a no knock entry, were home invaders. He killed several before being severely wounded by police. You guessed it, they charged him with murder of a police officer, a death penalty offence. Fortunately for him the jury saw it differently and let him go.
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Old 05-11-2010, 15:45   #47
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Something like this happened a couple of years back in or near Orlando. A drug team raided the wrong house and the owner thought the police, who were doing a no knock entry, were home invaders. He killed several before being severely wounded by police. You guessed it, they charged him with murder of a police officer, a death penalty offence. Fortunately for him the jury saw it differently and let him go.
Pretty much the same thing that happened when cops broke into the home of that 92 year old grandmother in Atlanta and, not knowing who they were, that scared granny started blasting away with her gun. The cops then killed her.

Sadly the training of cops today seems to give them a greener light to use deadly force, than in time past. Today it's as if they are trained to "Do what ever you have to to make sure you go home tonite and we'll cover your ass if you make and error." Whereas in times past it seemed more along the lines of "Would you be able to ever sleep again at night if you mistakenly shot an innocent person?". The change in the perspective of training has had predictable results - more innocents being shot by cops. No surprise there. We really need to get back to stressing Innocence in the primary and guilt as potential. It makes all the difference in the world. Until about 2 years ago, the Police department here in Seattle was VERY good in this regard. Now there are signs of even they giving into guilt before innocence mentality. It's sad.

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The city of Atlanta has agreed to pay the family of Kathryn Johnston $4.9 million as a result of a botched drug raid which left the 92-year-old grandmother dead.

Atlanta will pay the Johnston family $3.0 million this fiscal year and the rest is to be paid next year.



According to officials three officers entered her residence using a no-knock warrant. An informant told police that he purchased drugs from the home.
The grandmother apparently startled fired one shot over the door and over the officer’s heads. The officers fired back.


In total 39 shots were discharged with at least five or six bullets striking Johnson.


The officers then staged the scene and planted drugs in the house that had been recovered from a different raid.
City Of Atlanta Agrees To Pay Family Of Grandmother Shot Dead By Police | GantDaily.com
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Old 05-11-2010, 16:04   #48
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"The officers then staged the scene and planted drugs in the house that had been recovered from a different raid."



I have no doubt the information officer of volusia county is doing the same thing. SOP
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Old 05-11-2010, 16:21   #49
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UWOA, I just noticed that you relied on Carrol v. US to justify the boarding state that this is settled law. What a crock. You should go to law school. What is settled law and has been for a long time is that the the USCG and and US Customs Service/Border patrol have the right to board a vessel without permission. Local LEOs do not. Even the US Marshall's service and FBI requires a warrant to board a boat. Carrol v. US allowed police to search vehicles without a warrant for alcohol during prohibition if the vehicle was suspected of carrying alcohol. It did not allow police to randomly stop and search any vehicle simply because alcohol could fit inside it. It did not change the requirement for probable cause, only the warrant. Even this has been further restricted in recent years. where cars can't even be searched subsequent to an arrest without a warrant if the suspect did not have access to the vehicle during the arrest or evidence of the arrest offence was not in immediate danger of loss. (Gant v Arizona).
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Old 05-11-2010, 17:33   #50
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Given my suspicion the the local law enforcement officers were not enforcing the CFRs I looked up the applicable Florida law

Title XXIV
VESSELS
Chapter 327
VESSEL SAFETY
View Entire Chapter327.56
Safety and marine sanitation equipment inspections; qualified.

(1) No officer shall board any vessel to make a safety or marine sanitation equipment inspection if the owner or operator is not aboard. When the owner or operator is aboard, an officer may board a vessel with consent or when the officer has probable cause or knowledge to believe that a violation of a provision of this chapter has occurred or is occurring. An officer may board a vessel when the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment required by law, if requested to do so by a law enforcement officer, or when the safety or marine sanitation equipment to be inspected is permanently installed and is not visible for inspection unless the officer boards the vessel.







Looks to me like the officer was out of line and needed to ask first, not pull his gun. My son in law is a police officer, and I asked him if he would go charging into a room with his gun drawn, in which a guy just ducked into where he heard the sound of cabinets opening. He said that was a good way to get dead. Better to take cover and tell the people to come out with their hands up.

It would seem that reading the law if you kept one of thos little fold up camp potties on available that you could show the officer, he could never come aboard and inspect you.
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Old 05-11-2010, 17:39   #51
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"An officer may board a vessel when . . .the safety or marine sanitation equipment to be inspected is permanently installed and is not visible for inspection unless the officer boards the vessel."

They had the right to board. That's not the point.
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Old 05-11-2010, 17:40   #52
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Here is an important story for all of us to read. It was in the SE Crusier's Net email today. Cruiser's Net Blog Archive Important Boarding Incident in Volusia County (between New Smyrna Beach and Mosquito Lagoon)
Its a shame that they had to use such force for a simple boarding check. The Pottie Patrol welcome to Florida ! It is the Law in Florida to have the y valve locked or twisted with wire no plastic zip ties, they usually check on the state lines between Georgia and so on. I've been lucky not to be greeted by them the only one's was the U.S. Customs leaving Tarpon Springs with their race boat pulled along side, one eldderly GENTLEMAN boarded my boat I was headed out the jetties my dog was all over him licking him he loved it . He got all my info then the boat pulled back this young gung ho cocky AO was getting ready to board my dog goes to greet him he draws his glock 10 mm ME my heart is pounding I left the helm and screamed and hollared don't shoot my dog ! The older man told the young man holster it, and strap it, He had a attitude right away on me he tore the inside of my boat appart I did'nt find out till they left and I got off the beach set sail and turned on the auto pilot.I was so pissed off when I went down below and saw the mess! I had just put a new stereo in and the wires were just twisted together the way I bought it.He found the wire pieces thinking they were pot seeds putting them on the table flour,sugar,grits all in plastic containers all left open stuff scattered everywhere. That has been my only bad expreince there,But that was five years ago bringing my boat back from Texas times have changed now I fished out of New Smyrna for two years and the only prolbem I had was waking up the bridge attendant at night to go through. Each county in Florida seems to make up their own laws and there's no way to keep up with them just be nice and kiss butt is all I do and hope for the best. Makes me NOT want to enter their waters !
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Old 05-11-2010, 17:49   #53
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I think I'll get me one of these and when the Florida water cops ask me about my marine sanitation device I'll show it to them. I'll tape a copy of the state statute to it just for good measure.

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Old 05-11-2010, 17:49   #54
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As to the Y-Valves, most all of the MSD laws talk to "locking" the Y-Valve so that all discharge goes to the holding tank. Originally that was worded as "locked" with a padlock but since the greatest number of Y-valves on the market had no provisions for "locking" the wording was relaxed to included other methods to prevent accidental or intentional moving of the Y-valve back to overboard discharge.
- - California was a leader in this area and Catalina Island anchorages were actively patrolled daily by the "potty police". They board the vessels anchored or moored and inspected the Y-Valve and then dropped the "dye tablet" into the MSD and flushed it. Each day they only had to look around the anchorage areas for any bright dye in the waters to prove your guilt. It seems that other States have been adopting the "dye tablet" technique which when you think of it, is pretty much foolproof.

- - On the subject of police misconduct, I would be hard pressed to say that such incidences within the USA are even close to the severity of such things in other countries. Imagine the incident but in Venezuela or Panama or any other country where just mouthing off to an officer can get you bleeding in a concrete cell without benefit of medical treatment, etc.
- - It all goes back to the principle of exhibiting polite deference to officials be they customs/immigration or constables, marshalls, police or military. Every now and then your "number" comes up and such incidents become part of your life.
- - For instance, when crossing the Gulf Stream to/from the Bahamas, especially at night, I make sure I have a functional VHF at the helm and all the folks on the boat are briefed that if a million-watt light suddenly illuminates the boat, nobody moves, nobody goes below, nobody comes up from below. The USCG or DEA or Customs boat will contact you and quiz you on all your documentation, ports of call and destination, etc. All that information needs to be at your fingertips - I have placards at the helm with all the documentation numbers, customs decal numbers, dates of birth, home address, etc. "They" are watching you through powerful binoculars and if anybody does anything/moves they have established "probable cause" and the boarding will not be so friendly. Over the years I have noticed that if they can get all your information and it checks out with the various databases, then they will wish you a pleasant crossing and move to another boat.
I wont live my life constantly being concerned for all the variables.
It's NO way to live.
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Old 05-11-2010, 18:07   #55
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Sorry Jenny2 but there's no special requirement in Florida. Florida law just says it must be secured according to USCG requirements and the USCG requires non-releasable wire ties. Plastic zip ties are non-releasable wire ties. The thing that makes them meet the requirement is that they must be destroyed to be removed. You have cut them off to remove them. The original purpose of zip ties was to restrain wire bundles in aircraft and spacecraft, hence the name wire ties. I used them in one of my first electonics jobs in the early 70s working on the B1 bomber and other military and NASA programs. You probably ran into some bone headed Law enforcement officer who didn't know any better. They're not hired for their knowledge of rocket science.
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Old 05-11-2010, 18:39   #56
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"An officer may board a vessel when . . .the safety or marine sanitation equipment to be inspected is permanently installed and is not visible for inspection unless the officer boards the vessel."

They had the right to board. That's not the point.
It seems to me that unless he first asks if the MSD is permanently installed and receives an affirmative answer he has no right to come on board. If the vessel used a portapotty or some similar device the owner could have shown it to him at the gunnel the the officer would have had no right to board. I don't believe that in law enforcement you can assume that you have the right to board, but you must first determine if circumstances meet the requirements of the law that allows the action. You cannot take the action then later determine if it was justified. Does one shoot the suspect then determine if he presented a threat? Maybe in a military situation but I was not aware that Volusia County had declared a state of war against cruisers.
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Old 05-11-2010, 18:41   #57
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Along I-95 North and South of Baltimore Police Routinely have their weapons out at their sides when conducting traffic stops...as they approach the vehicle. When they are certain no threat exists...into the holster.

An LEO during a boarding is in a very vulnerable position......Hence, weapons drawn......

Doesn't bother me.
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Old 05-11-2010, 18:50   #58
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Quote:
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Sorry Jenny2 but there's no special requirement in Florida. Florida law just says it must be secured according to USCG requirements and the USCG requires non-releasable wire ties. Plastic zip ties are non-releasable wire ties. The thing that makes them meet the requirement is that they must be destroyed to be removed. You have cut them off to remove them. The original purpose of zip ties was to restrain wire bundles in aircraft and spacecraft, hence the name wire ties. I used them in one of my first electonics jobs in the early 70s working on the B1 bomber and other military and NASA programs. You probably ran into some bone headed Law enforcement officer who didn't know any better. They're not hired for their knowledge of rocket science.
I have herd so many different stories I just take the handle off and lock it up done deal put the dye in and let me be on my way
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Old 05-11-2010, 18:53   #59
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Along I-95 North and South of Baltimore Police Routinely have their weapons out at their sides when conducting traffic stops...as they approach the vehicle. When they are certain no threat exists...into the holster.

An LEO during a boarding is in a very vulnerable position......Hence, weapons drawn......

Doesn't bother me.
It don't bother me just don't shoot my dog
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Old 05-11-2010, 18:55   #60
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I have herd so many different stories I just take the handle off and lock it up done deal put the dye in and let me be on my way
That's nice if it works on your boat, but my seacock leaks like a sieve with the handle removed, so I had to resort to the wire tie method. There's no way to put a padlock on the handle so I had to drill a hole in it and epoxy a hold down to the hull to fasten the wire tie.
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