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Old 05-11-2010, 09:16   #16
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Having worked with law enforcement for many years providing them with the best in current technology for communications and data retrievel I have met those that did their job without having to draw a weapon, and I have met those that lived for every time they got to pull down on someone.

Sadly, it appears that there are more of the latter and less of the former.

Yes it is a dangerous job, anyone who does it has my respect and admiration as long as they are just doing their job, and not getting a rush out of playing a jack boot.

We deal with one down at the basin that is known by several respected residents as an "attitude with a gun"

It was my understanding from reading the article that the owner was down below before the boarding incident took place, delayed long enough to put out an open flame in the galley, so the argument about the boaters causing the escalation does not seem appropriate.

My other concern is your final comment about "treat em like a million bucks, but have a plan to kill them"

Perhaps you meant to say "treat em like a million bucks, but have a plan to control the situation."

By the way, find a copy of Communications Magazine Oct 1991 I believe.

I was part of a team that put one of the first mobile data systems in for the city of Memphis, that system was credited with potentially saving the life of an officer the first night, during a traffic stop.

And once again, all in uniform have my gratitude, support and respect, unless they abuse it in some manner.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:18   #17
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Yes, but the valved needs to be secured, and that is most likely why there was a citation. Everything else is inexcusable, and this crew should be reprimanded without pay for some length of time.

This is pale compared to what happened to another member here in Green Cove Springs Fl. Someone called the authorities that marijuana was on the boat. Itwas tied to the slip, and what descended upon them was the ridiculous

I witnessed one large helicopter hovering for more than an hour after the person was arrested. Turns out there was no pot on the boat, but in his car. There were no less a dozen officers with a dog also on the dock, or on the boat. There must have been a half dozen police cars, and it was obvious the left hand, and right hand recognized they were together. To top this off there was a 30-35ft. scarab type boat with several huge engines mounted tied across his stern. Just where did they think this guy was going in a 33ft cruiser?

No matter what kind of job it is. You will always fins a butthead, or 2 doing it. What's crazy is they had to drop the charges the very next morning. How much was spent to accomplish nothing?.........i2f
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:27   #18
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Land law enforcement and marine law enforcement are two very different things. Even the USCG knows to ask the "master" of the vessel if they can board even though the USCG knows they have a legal right to board. Under marine law the "master" of the vessel can state an objection due to "safety of the vessel and crew" and the USCG will simply accompany the vessel to a safe place to heave to or anchor before actually boarding.
- - If any visible member of the crew leaves the cockpit to go below the USCG will definitely do a more thorough search than otherwise.
- - But in the report on this incident and the response from the authorities it is quite evident that a lot of CYA is going on. With vessel underway, under power, it is a strain to credulity to assert that the officers could hear folks closing valves or cabinets. Local police/Sheriff deputies are rarely ever schooled or could care less about maritime law and custom. To them it is strictly a matter of "land" law and "land" procedures.
- - The history of abuse of authority or even just pushing the limits of their authority is way too long to be myth. This reported incident - taken from the report and response - was just plain handled very badly. And that is nothing new especially in Florida.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:34   #19
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It's very simple...law enforcement must be required to have probable cause. In many cases a boat is a citizens home or cottage. Boats are treated like a home or cottage by the IRS. Our Constitution is suppose to protect us from unwarranted search of our homes.

This example typifies how our freedoms and our quality of life is being eroded by our government and courts.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:38   #20
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If you check earlier in the thread you will see that boats/vessels are specifically excluded by US law going all the way back to the founding of the USA from being classified as "home/castle". They are "transportation devices" just like cars, buses, and RV's.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:41   #21
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
If you check earlier in the thread you will see that boats/vessels are specifically excluded by US law going all the way back to the founding of the USA from being classified as "home/castle". They are "transportation devices" just like cars, buses, and RV's.
You do realize that the police need a search warrant to search your automobile.

The search on boats without a warrant was decided in the 50's I think.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:44   #22
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Well there is another side to the story

Quote:
Thanks to all who’ve written to inquire about this incident. Unfortunately, the events as depicted on the web site posting don’t convey all of the relevant facts surrounding the incident in question.
First off, the author is in fact correct that no provocation with law enforcement had occurred prior to the boarding. However, it should be clearly understood that no provocation is required, or even permission needed, for law enforcement to board a craft for the purposes of conducting a lawful inspection. The reality is that transient crafts moving through the waterways within our jurisdiction have been known to dump sewage into our waterways on many occasions. Along with ensuring boating safety and compliance with the rules of the water, the prevention of sewage dumping is another responsibility taken very seriously by the Volusia County Sheriff’s Office and its Marine Unit. I feel certain that everyone with an interest in preventing the pollution of our waterways appreciates our efforts in this regard.

With that in mind, some key facts were omitted from the description of the encounter on November 3, 2010. Most notably, when our deputies boarded the craft, they ordered the two occupants on the top deck to stay where they were. In direct defiance of the deputies’ order, one of the passengers ran to the cabin area, where noises could then be heard that sounded as if compartments or drawers were being opened. Not knowing the intent of the passenger or the reason for his failure to comply with their orders, and fearing that he may have been reaching for a weapon, a deputy did in fact draw his duty weapon for officer safety purposes.

This in no way was inappropriate, an over-reaction or an unprovoked assault, as alleged by the writer. Given the sequence of events, this was an entirely appropriate and necessary act on the part of the deputy until they could secure the occupants and gain control of the scene. To those on this web site who are questioning the actions of our deputies, I ask you to think for just a moment what you would have done in the same circumstance. Given the dangers that law enforcement officers face every day on the job, I also ask you to stop and consider what might have occurred if the passenger was, in fact, reaching for a weapon and the deputy had not drawn his weapon for protection. Our deputies are trained to exercise restraint. But they also are trained to draw their weapons if they perceive the potential for harm. Waiting for the danger to be upon them is tragically too late to react.
Lastly, it should be noted that the inspection of the craft did result in the discovery of a discharge valve that was not properly secured, as required. As unsettling as these events may have been for the occupants of the craft, the events would have transpired much differently had all of the occupants simply complied with the lawful commands of law enforcement.
Gary Davidson
Public Information Officer
Volusia County Sheriff’s Office
My bolding.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:54   #23
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You couldn't imagine my experiences with cops.
I have no priors, am clean cut and good natured.
They don't understand me or my lifestyle so they attack what they fear.
It's a form of ignorance.


The greatest stories never get told.



Please leave me alone.

I had a cop drive onto the sidewalk and side-slam his patrol car into me, me and my bike went flying in the air. When I stood up with blood on my face, he was already straddling my front tire straightening out my handlebars and helping me back on my bike and moving me along like a child learning how to ride bike for first time.

I was stopped for traffic infraction and my registered pistol wasn't showing up on the computer as being registered although I lived 2 blocks away and the receipt for me registering was easily accesable in my filing cabinet. I spent the night in jail and got harassed, so did my girl while bailing me for 1,500 bucks. When I appeared in court with receipt, judge gave me papers to get my gun from evidence vault, when sherrif handed me my "new" pistol it fell apart in my hands as they broke it with tools.

3 years ago I was crossing the street with my laptop in hand and was surrounded by Hendersonville, NC cops asking me where did I get it and that I had to have proof that I owned it. They checked me for warrants, treated me like **** and and ran the serial numbers with dispatcher to see if the laptop was stolen.

To keep this post "related" to sailing I have to say that I am very happy to be on a sailboat where I can just GO!

And.....NO, there is no other side to the story and nothing omitted, the only info left out would be supportive of my argument.
But, I have no interest in continuing this conversation nor proving a point.

Oh, yeah,
My girl and I were watching a DVD at 10:00pm on our boat and the FWC big guns turned on stadium like lights and jumped into cockpit, told me to keep hands on table as they put dye tablet in my head. Checked me for warrants, received call on radio and ran back to a previous boarding in anchorage and arrested him.

I even help struggling and homeless people when I can.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:44   #24
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welcome to the fascist world of us of a. good luck and god save us all.
time to go sailing.

endoftheworld-- btdt also, an yes , i also help the homeless and hungry--i even worked as er rn for long time-- we all get this treatment-- dammit---there is no such thing as protection for our tax paying selves. is alll good. is why we are mobile. i feel for the ones not able to relocate when the real s*** hits the fan.....when i moved in board in 1990 i knew i was giving up certain inalienable rights-- privacy, protection from unlawful search and seizure, and some other minor -yeah right- considerations that land owners possess. this nation was set up for the land owner and that individual has become the corporation. what the founding fathers didnt do , the patriot act did. we are not a free nation anymore. the reality check is yet to come. no amount of amendments can repair the damage done already.
good luck and smooth sailing.

i have been called on(to police) because i had 3 individuals on my boat(neighbors for a bbq)-- the police boat comes up directly behind my transom andmario, policeman on board, states to me they had a call from a neighbor reporting "excessive marijuana smoke" emitting from my boat---lol--i said--mario--you KNOW i dont do anything-- i just started my bbq!!! he laughed and left---is only because i have been in this bay far too long..had i been a regular anchorout or a mooring tenant unknown to them i would have been jacked up-- the uscg boarded our boats because an alleged neighbor complained of excessive oil and effluent in the mooring water-- wasnt anything in the water that day--so 5 of us got jacked up for nothing-- we were all except one compliant with uscg regs. so--you tell ME we arent becoming fascist here--LOL.. try!!!!

i am treated such and i even worked with police--i am a forensics trained rn.
i feel really badly for the regular tax paying citizens who are jacked up over nothing. this doews become part of your record even if nothing ie found. what do they do with this info????
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:59   #25
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Get a lawyer!!! They use to do the same thing to bikers in the 80s........

When I had my boat inspected by the CGAx (in MD) they were looking for the same thing - either remove the valve handles or have wire ties so there is no accidental discharge.

It seems from the DEP write up below, they can board your vessel if:

1. If they have probable course
2. with consent - they have to ask!!!
or
3. if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.

What a joke how are you going to show MSD w/o boarding?

Maybe USCG inspection sticker. Maybe the sheriff have a different law!!!!
From Fl DEP - I bolded the text:

What are the guidelines for “Y-valves”?
Under federal law, if a boat has a “Y” valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be closed while operating in all inland and coastal waters. It is suggested you use a non-releasable wire tie, lock, or remove the valve handle to secure the device. When you are more than three miles offshore in the ocean, the “Y” valve may be open allowing direct discharge overboard.
A “Y” valve may also be found on boats having both a Type I or II MSD and a holding tank. This gives the boater an option to discharge treated waste overboard or to contain it for pumpout later.


Are marine sanitation devices subject to inspection?
Yes. When the owner or operator is aboard, an officer may board a vessel with consent or if there is probable cause or knowledge to believe that a violation has occurred or is occurring. An officer may also board a vessel if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.

What are the fines for non-compliance?

$50.00 infraction for compliance issues
$250.00 civil penalty for discharge of raw sewage


You make your own opinion here about the fine!!!


http://www.dep.state.fl.us/cleanmarina/CVA/boater_faq.htm#9
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:03   #26
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Originally Posted by smallyachts View Post

My other concern is your final comment about "treat em like a million bucks, but have a plan to kill them"

Perhaps you meant to say "treat em like a million bucks, but have a plan to control the situation."
Working with the police, doesn't make you one, much less understand the vagaries of what a cop on the beat goes through on a daily basis in encounters with the criminal element that moves through our streets and waterways. I can't teach you situational awareness or the finer points about the use of force continuum.

Where you want to cloak everything in politically correct dialogue, I speak directly .... the force continuum ultimately ends in the use of deadly force ... whether an officer gets to that point depends on the totality of the circumstances. No officer would last long in our system of laws and judicial review if they acted like they were back in the Wild West, and none but the bad apples that get weeded out early in their career because they got into law enforcement for the wrong reasons 'goes to guns' at the first opportunity. But more than one officer has died violently because he took a bad position, became complacent, or didn't plan for the worst (which means using your firearm).

So, please don't put words in my mouth. I've been a street cop, a supervisor and a police chief during my thirty-four plus year career. I've attended the best training this country can offer (the FBI National Academy). I've worked as a Special Federal Officer/Special Deputy US Marshal for the FBI working undercover in organized crime/gangs. And I've trained hundreds, if not thousands, of police officers in bomb disposal operations, S.W.A.T., water rescue (I'm in the Red Cross Hall of Fame for saving a child who fell through ice) and general police subjects. In short, I know what I'm talking about, and more than once has functioned as an expert witness in matters revolving around police activity.

.... so take a chill pill.
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:05   #27
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Florida is a tourist state. Its government is very sensitive to that fact. Letting the governemnt (at the state level) know might help to change their approach. However, Florida has to deal with a lot of drug trafficing, and yes they do use sailboats to traffic drugs. If this boat described had been trafficcing drugs then the sherrifs' approach would have been completely appropriate. If I were in the sherrif's shoes I would probably ere on the side of the safety of my men. If it had been my boat that they boarded, I wouldn't have liked it, but you have to take it perspective. If the ticket was not deserved, that is whole other problem that needs to be dealt with. I would start by appearing in court to pay the fine. Everyone has that option in FL.
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:33   #28
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This is so frightening.
Red neck gestapo cops boarding your vessel/home with guns drawn?
I find this more disturbing than the Somali pirates.
And to check the toilets?
i will have young children and very old people on my boat, while anchored around the US waterways.
Where is this country going?
The FED destroying the dollar, and unlimited power to peon police...
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:49   #29
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A very basic change in perspective happened after 9/11. Americans are now presumed guilty and innocence has to be proven AFTER contact with law enforcement. Jumping on a moving boat is NOT the act of an agency who presumes innocence first and foremost. It is the act of an agency that presumes guilt and will apologise if need be for any error if innocence becomes obvious - AFTER the fact.

Here is an example of that very basic change in posturing. An innocent family is terrorised at gunpoint all on the account of a wrong address. And to make matters worse, they let a celebrity basketball player, Shaquille O'Neal, come along for the joy ride.

Quote:
I am a local farmer; my wife teaches elementary school; our three children are well-adjusted, “A” students.

We go to church, work hard, and pay our bills and taxes.
We are law-abiding, responsible members of society; we have never had reason to fear the law.

On Saturday morning, Sept. 23, 2006, many police vehicles appeared in our driveway. Men in black with flak jackets ran to and around our house.

My wife was at home alone. I drove up and asked, “What's going on?”

Men ran at me, dropped into shooting position, double-handed semi-automatic pistols pointed at me, and made me put my hands against my truck.


I was held at gunpoint, searched, taunted, and led into the house. I had no idea what this was about. I was scared beyond description. I feared there had been a murder and I was a suspect.

My wife and I were interrogated about Internet crime. We are not avid computer users; we do not even e-mail. We knew nothing of what they were speaking.

After seemingly convincing them of our computer “illiteracy,” we were questioned about our children and made to doubt their innocence.

Our home was searched by a para-military search-and-seizure team.

Our computers, digital camera, disposable cameras, DVD's, and VHS tapes were seized.

We were held in our home under guard for five hours.

Our children came home and were also interrogated.

It was awful. We were accused of horrible crimes, crimes that even the mention of would ruin our reputations.

The investigation was to be complete within six to nine months. We were in shock.

At 5:30 p.m. on Monday, Oct. 2, the chief investigator of Pittsylvania County returned our possessions and said that the wrong IP (computer) address had been identified. We would not be charged.
http://www.wpcva.com/articles/2006/1.../opinion01.txt
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Old 05-11-2010, 12:47   #30
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Yes, but the valved needs to be secured, and that is most likely why there was a citation. Everything else is inexcusable, and this crew should be reprimanded without pay for some length of time.

This is pale compared to what happened to another member here in Green Cove Springs Fl. Someone called the authorities that marijuana was on the boat. Itwas tied to the slip, and what descended upon them was the ridiculous

I witnessed one large helicopter hovering for more than an hour after the person was arrested. Turns out there was no pot on the boat, but in his car. There were no less a dozen officers with a dog also on the dock, or on the boat. There must have been a half dozen police cars, and it was obvious the left hand, and right hand recognized they were together. To top this off there was a 30-35ft. scarab type boat with several huge engines mounted tied across his stern. Just where did they think this guy was going in a 33ft cruiser?

No matter what kind of job it is. You will always fins a butthead, or 2 doing it. What's crazy is they had to drop the charges the very next morning. How much was spent to accomplish nothing?.........i2f
I bet it was all over the tv news. That's what they accomplished...
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