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Old 08-11-2010, 16:01   #151
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Our plot thickens

33 USC 1322 reads:

(k) Enforcement authority

The provisions of this section shall be enforced by the Secretary of
the department in which the Coast Guard is operating and he may utilize
by agreement, with or without reimbursement, law enforcement officers or
other personnel and facilities of the Administrator, other Federal
agencies, or the States to carry out the provisions of this section. The
provisions of this section may also be enforced by a State.

(l) Boarding and inspection of vessels; execution of warrants and other

Anyone authorized by the Secretary of the department in which the
Coast Guard is operating to enforce the provisions of this section may,
except as to public vessels, (1) board and inspect any vessel upon the
navigable waters of the United States and (2) execute any warrant or
other process issued by an officer or court of competent jurisdiction.

I take from this that the next step in teasing this all out would be to read the congressional record related to the drafting of this section (and or an annotated version of the statute). The title of subsection (l) references both "boarding of vessels" and "warrants". That raises all sorts of questions about intent and construction.

Again though, to Osirissail's first point above -- there is enough here that law enforcement (who never read the law accurately -- only favorably) might believe its actions are justified. Indeed, depending on how you break down the federal statute (though I still don't see anything that permits the boarding) perhaps congress actually intended to convey the authority for a boarding by state actors without warrant or specific cause. Even so, none of that resolves the constitutionality of the action.

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Old 08-11-2010, 17:08   #152
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None of us can know the exact details of what happened in this particular case but here is something to ponder. Why are we seeing a plethora of cases in which police/sheriffs are involved in using questionable (gestapo) tactics to enforce MSD questions on one hand while there seems to be universal agreement that the CG handles the same task with a "professional/positve" approach? Does anyone else see that this comparison, in and of itself, supports the conjecture that the police are heading down a slippery slope of abuse of power? I wonder what the average German said when they saw the SS and Gestapo abusing there citizens. The Gestapo probably believed they had the legal justification for their actions. As an American, I am embarassed that our fellow foreign visitors see this and that anyone has to be exposed to this abuse.

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Old 08-11-2010, 17:21   #153
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Old 08-11-2010, 18:07   #154
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Hard to say exactly what happened since there are two sides to every story.

What is clear though is that Law enforcement should be courteous and ask permission to board whether they have the right to or not. They should also deal with the captain unless there are other circumstances which require faster action.

I think too often cops don't use good judgement and take things too far. I was once pulled over as we were heading to the hospital as we just found out my wife's father (who was supposed to be going home) was back in surgery. We entered a rotary and saw an ambulance entering from the next entrace so we yielded to them and pulled off the rotary behind them. Right as we pulled off, two biker cops waved us over. I told the officer we were heading to the hospial. His response was "The ambulance has to get there first". He then gave me a ticket for speeding and following too close to the ambulance.

Even if he was 100% correct, what kind of a jerk would pull you over, understand (which was incorrect) that you were following an ambulance with someone you know inside and still take the time to give you a ticket for going 10mph over the speed limit and following too close, which was a result of my slowing down to let them merge into a busy rotary.

End result was my wasting a day to drive the 2 hours to the courthouse just to have them throw it out.

So while there are many cops that do their job well, I think there are just as many that take it too far. Seems more likely to me that's what happened in this case.
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Old 08-11-2010, 18:32   #155
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If you refuse to allow the DNR to Board in are subject to a fine.
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Old 08-11-2010, 18:45   #156
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Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
If you refuse to allow the DNR to Board in are subject to a fine.
That is unreasonable!

"The Fourth Amendment was written directly in response to British general warrants (called Writs of Assistance), in which the Crown would grant general search powers to British law enforcement official. These officials could search virtually any home they liked, at any time they liked, for any reason they liked or for no reason at all. Since many of the founding fathers were smugglers, this was an especially unpopular concept in the colonies."

This thread could start a revolution.......................... nah!
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Old 09-11-2010, 03:48   #157
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This is thread is showing a real problem .................too many lawyers (because a bunch of you seem to believe you are one).

Follow the laws and stop being such crybabies! If you don't; pay your fine and stop wondering why boats get stopped and boarded (maybe because they just found another boat in voliation and therefore suspect there's more out there).
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:58   #158
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Originally Posted by AllezCat View Post
... What is a wire tie anyway?
Cable tie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:04   #159
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
But, I just want to clarify: there was mention that a wire tie was ok, but a cable tie was not. Or vise versa. Want to be precise.
Is wire tie just stainless steel seizing wire?
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:55   #160
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jeez is this thread still going?
fact: in many places some one would have got shot.
armed law tells you to stand still you do so. if he came out of that cabin with anything in hnd that could have been mistaken for a wepon...

when im boarded i STOP, keep hands in plain view and adresss officers as sir.
funny but i dont seem to have the hassells some of yall are speaking off and i get boarded a lot.
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:36   #161
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Originally Posted by keyspc View Post
jeez is this thread still going?
fact: in many places some one would have got shot.
armed law tells you to stand still you do so. if he came out of that cabin with anything in hnd that could have been mistaken for a wepon...

when im boarded i STOP, keep hands in plain view and adresss officers as sir.
funny but i dont seem to have the hassells some of yall are speaking off and i get boarded a lot.
I was never boarded in 3 years.(in the 90's)
The "hassles", IMO are the fact that you are "boarded a lot".
We all know not reach in our pocket for our cell-phone, or pick up a winch handle. And say yes sir, no sir, etc...

I don't believe there is any place that is more dangerous than the USA right now from local military, etc...
And Australia being the worst for bureaucratic/cost hassles...
Whether the employees are smiling and friendly or not is not the issue...
I will deal with it and train young children not to make sudden moves, etc...
I had the same experienced when I was pulled over in Harlem recently. I have a Chevy Tahoe tinted windows etc...
He was very nervous, aggressive, extremely intense situation.
I had a 5 year old girl in the car.
Never been so scared for her safety...Of course, all windows down, hands on the wheel...
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Old 09-11-2010, 06:57   #162
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So..... take the handle off the valve, hog out the hole so it LOOKS closed, and wire tie it in that position... problem solved! BTW: remember to tell the crew that if you're flooding from that valve to "open" it to stop the water! LOL

Of course the above post was meant in humor! This writer would never do such a thing!

Years ago, I was running a push-boat down the ICW on the West Coast; just south of Tampa Bay, I was Southbound with 2 head barges.... 265' total length and about 1700 tons. A Deputy Sheriff pulled alongside and demanded I heave to for boarding! Now this kid who looked about 19 just didn't understand you can't just stop such a rig in the ICW, and was getting quite angry. I did manage to get Tampa MSO on the VHF who sent a team from Station Cortez to intervene and "assist" with the boarding.

Short story long, the "kid" finally got aboard (while we maintained course and speed) blathering on about our MSD valve. I told him sure he could look, and had the mate take him to the engine room. Our boat had 3 BIG Caterpillars pushing and 2 gennys going in there and about a half mile of pipe, and a LOT of valves.

After only 5 minutes down there they came back up soaked with sweat.... THEN I showed him our Incinolet! The Coasties could barely contain their laughter, and the Coxswain chided the Deputy about leaving the commercial stuff to them!
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
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Old 09-11-2010, 07:54   #163
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To take this thread down a slightly different path since the legality horse seems immobile if not dead; What is one's obligation as a skipper with regards to rules of the road and maneuvering when being approached by a law enforcement boat so close as to be able to board but has not by radio, voice or loud hailer, asked permission or informed the skipper of their intent to board. Also assuming they haven't turned on their blue light which requires you to heave to. It would seem to me under the rules of the road you are required to maneuver your boat so as to prevent a collision or any danger there of. If they are close enough to board they definitely present a danger of a collision. You probably need to sound the danger signal as well.
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Old 09-11-2010, 10:41   #164
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Maintain course and speed.
You must be able to keep yout vessel under control at all times, and you cannot be under control the vessel if drifting.
Every time I've been boarded, the officers have always said by loud hailer, VHF or by voice being close by, is to maintain course and speed and come alongside with plenty of fenders out or if in an inflatable ease up next to you, maintain pressure against you, ask permission to board. That's how the professional LEO's do it..

Amateur LEO's think they are God's, run up next to you, combat boots on, instead of coming up to the lifeline gates, they will just climb over the lifelines getting nasty boot marks on your deck and cabin sole...

BIG difference between amateur and professionals

P.S. Actually had a boarding officer while doing a poopy check while on the GIWW wanted me to leave the helm, with visible barge traffic on the waterway to show him where the thru hull was as the forward head is overboard discharge only. I rightly refused and tried to explain to him where it was located...

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Old 09-11-2010, 10:55   #165
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When we were boarded by the USCG last March they asked us to maintain course but to reduce speed. He told us keep steerageway but not much more. They also advised us they would do all the work to get their guy on board. I did open the lifeline gate for him, which he seemed to appreciate.

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