More problems in Mexico

[TacomaSailor]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

For the record, San Ysidro is in the US, not MX.

It is obvious you've never been to San Ysidro!

I bicycle in and thru lovely San Ysidro several times a month and occasionally ride the trolley to SY to start my bicycle rides.

Not a word of english is spoken there, all the signs are in Spanish, and every automobile has a Baja licences plate.

SY may be north of the border fence but it is still part of Mexico.

The cool thing about San Ysidro is the number of upscale US shops and stores that have dedicated Spanish speaking outlets that feature merchandise focused on their Northern Baja clientele.

[weavis]

I like Pico de gallo

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Mr. Eisberg,

You've completely made our morning, uproarious laughter is still echoing here in the salon.

Wrong, lots of countries charge for cruising permits, or have some other kind of fee for clearing in when you arrive. We were in Panama a few months back, and we had to buy a cruising permit there. I've had to lay down some cash in basically every country I've sailed to, and I've sailed to a lot of them... I think that the US and Canada are the only free ones that I can remember. ] Mexico falls about in the middle of the curve when it comes to the money we were charged to get in and get our 10 year permit issued. I think that the permit works out to about $7 per year. EXTORITION!!!

I think that you don't really know what you're talking about here.

Not what I'm referring to. But, when I first heard of it, there were no details available at the time. Does not affect cruisers. "A new regulation, introduced January 2012, states that anyone sailing within 24 miles of the coast of Mexico must be in possession of a visa. These visas however are for fishing boats fishing in Mexican waters but never going ashore. The regulation does not apply to sailboats that will be calling at Mexican ports."

As far as being shaken down for mordida, it's never happened to us on the boat. A couple of times while driving, but never in the cruising context. Anyway, if you know how to handle it, about 10 bucks will get you on your way, or you demand a ticket from them and you're usually on your way too. It's part of life down there, but really, is it that big of a deal? Those of us who have spent years there think not. In 10+ years of being there about half the year, I think that I had 3 bogus stops on the road, not really the end of the world.

Clearly, your tolerance for crooked people, whether officials or not is higher than most civil human beings.

The AGACE raids were a completely bone-headed move by the authorities. I was present when these happened. In fact, I had 2 sailboats there at that time, a 44 footer and our current 55. We had never seen anything quite like that in our time there, and to be honest, it was a bit freaky.

Yes, and nothing ever happens to cruisers...

The fact that a whole bunch of perfectly legal boats got impounded was awful. However, the outcome was fine for all but maybe one or two boats which had serious paperwork problems, and everyone else did get cleared. Yes, it took some time, and yes, it caused a lot of stress and anxiety for those who got caught up in it, but nobody got shaken down for money in the deal, and I think that we can all count on this sort of nonsense not happening again. The Mexicans know they screwed up big-time.

But, but... The Mexican government and officials with authority to affect anyone's life have a long history of abuse, graft and corruption. It is in their DNA. Your optimism is astounding and unsupported by the facts. These kinds of incidents are sport in Mexico...

But, it also left a sour taste in our mouth, and did make us feel like the place was less great than we did prior to this event.

But, but...

I also second the sentiment here that the folks who are screaming the loudest about how awful it is down there are the ones with the least direct, recent experience in the country.

It's an exaggeration to suggest people who bring attention to State Department advisories and warnings are 'screaming' about it. And given the choice, I'll apply more weight to the warnings and advisories than testimony from a few posters in C.F. with long term perspectives.

The other thing of interest here is that all of the stories about crime/kidnapping/whatever have nothing whatsoever to do with cruising and crime directed against cruisers. Cruise in the normal areas, don't be an idiot, don't flash a lot of wealth or be a loud, ugly American, and all will probably be just fine. Could you wind up the victim of violent crime? You bet you could. Just the same way you could at home.

I contend that your conclusion victims do not include cruisers is overly optimistic and suspect were you to do an exhaustive search for facts you'd learn otherwise. Would your findings change your mind about the relative safety of going to Mexico? Probably not...

But, if you don't wish to go, that's just fine with the rest of us, but please don't call those who do travel south a bunch of idiots.

Your condescension is typical. Did I call "...those..who travel south a bunch of idiots?

We're not,

You are the appointed spokesperson for them all, and you're intimately familiar with their states of mind, level of preparedness and future experiences in Mexico?

and many of us have lots of safe, enjoyable years behind us there, and really don't buy into what the anti-Mexico crowd is spewing. Either choice is valid, but you should really take note that the folks who have had their boats there really don't share your view.

TJ

It's quite revealing that you see people who bring attention to dangers associated with visiting Mexico as "anti-Mexico", spewing forth information released by the State Department or alerting others to a murdered Canadian in Cabo San Lucas. Or, for that matter, warning others about the growing presence of drug cartels, kidnapping and violence in Baja Sur.

Nothing biased in your views of Mexico, eh?

[TJ D]

Wrong,

My whole post was not a rebuttal of your contribution here. Just the part about the cruising permit. I should have been more clear.

You personally never called anybody an idiot, but looking back through the thread, there's a lot of misinformed nonsense being put up here, that's the main point.

Yes, the State Department has issued warnings. Here's the important part-- they are region specific. With the exception of Sinaloa, areas commonly visited by boats aren't really part of the warning. That's the point.

You might wish to go back and read my original post here. I acknowledged there that Mexico has become a much more dangerous place over these last 10 years. My contention is that it has probably not become more dangerous for CRUISERS. That's all.

Certainly, if you don't have some tolerance for corruption, Mexico is not the place for you! A very large portion of the world isn't for you either, for that mater. It's just a fact of life in many places, and the petty corruption that happens in Mexico is something that I personally don't find too offensive.

I'm far more offended by the large-scale corruption in my own country, to be honest with you. 'Too big to fail' comes to mind, but there are many, many examples of malfeasance happening here that dwarfs anything the Mexicans can come up with.

So, I'm not condescending here, really. As I posted previously, if someone looks at the country and decides it's not for them, that's just fine. I have no problem with that. I don't think they're misinformed or hiding in a gated community. Certainly, if one bogus traffic stop every few years is enough to disqualify a country in someone's eyes, it's best not to travel there.

The thing that I object to is painting the whole country with the same brush, as so often happens. It would be akin to taking Detroit and Chicago's crime stats and projecting them on the entire USA, and making a judgment based on that info. An imperfect comparison, I know, but you get the idea.

TJ

[sailorboy1]

I always thought the beauty of cruising was that if you don't like a place you leave. So why is this thread so complicated?

[scuba0_1]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Such BS.

What Disney chipmunk are a facade that's it im moving to Mexico..

Sent from my SM-N910V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I always thought the beauty of cruising was that if you don't like a place you leave. So why is this thread so complicated?

That's an excellent question.

I think that part of it is that an awful lot of people look to this forum for guidance and first-hand information about destinations, and whether or not to embark on a trip somewhere. If they were to conclude that it's just awful south of the border, they'll never leave home in the first place, and that's a shame. Honestly, how many people want to sail straight for French Polynesia, or sail non-stop to Costa Rica or Panama from San Diego? Very few. It makes Mexico sort of a mandatory stop when embarking on a cruise. And, it's still a fine destination in its own right.

As Mexico is almost always the first foreign (outside US/Canada) destination for West coast sailors, many of them have a little more anxiety about their first foreign landfall than they will as they become more experienced with it, so they're reading up here and other places about what to expect.

So, when folks start portraying Mexico as a lawless, violent, corrupt hell-hole, there are some who are moved to relay their own experiences to let those who are considering following them know that while that element does exist down there, there are an awful lot of folks who are doing just fine cruising the area.

I view it as sort of offering a bit of insight from on the ground to help balance the decision making of others.

Why it gets so damn contentious is beyond me, however. There is room for more than one opinion.

TJ

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Indeed, the Dirty Little - and definitely Best Kept - Secret about cruising in Mexico, is the untold number of cruisers who have literally vanished without a trace down there... And, NOBODY - whether it be surviving family members, or fellow members of the cruising community - seems to care at all, hence the reason such disappearances are so rarely noted...

Rumor has it that Richard Spindler of LATITUDE 38 has a vast amount of influence at the highest levels of the US State Department, and that they are cooperating in keeping the numbers of cruisers who have disappeared a secret, so as not to adversely affect participation in the Baja Ha-Ha...

Perhaps even more shocking, however, are the REAL numbers of cruisers who never even make it down to Cabo or La Paz to begin with, after boats and crews are lost due to every voyager's most primal fear: Namely, a collision with a floating or submerged shipping container... Again, the numbers of these incidents is truly staggering, and most people would never summon the nerve to leave the dock if they had any idea of what's really going on out there, and these incidents were not being ignored, or swept under the rug...

A little birdie tells me 60 MINUTES is working on a piece as we speak, how shippers like Maersk, Evergreen and Hanjin have managed to gain such influence in our own domestic agencies, to the point that the State Department and Homeland Security/Coast Guard have been deliberately concealing these losses of yachts for years...

Truly, it's a wonder most cruisers can summon the nerve to get out of bed each morning, with the vast array of threats being targeted at them from every conceivable direction...

Wow!

You have quite the vivid imagination! Keep that in mind when claiming others are fear mongers...

[Terra Nova]

TJ--good posts.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Wow!

You have quite the vivid imagination! Keep that in mind when claiming others are fear mongers...

Me thinks you missed it Socal........ its called sarcasm.

Well done too if I might add.

[TJ D]

It's funny, maybe we've got the rose colored glasses on about Mexico because we're cooped up inside with the heater running full-on, watching the snow fall. Again. (Why did we pick this year to sail up the E. coast again???)

Oh, and I'm crawling around the frozen lazarette installing our new autopilot today. Mexico's sounds just GREAT right about now!

Good thing CF is here for entertainment.

TJ

[bobofthenorth]

Originally Posted by Wrong

You may believe it's totally alright to have to buy a permit to simply sail in Mexican waters, but I don't. There isn't another country I'm aware of that requires this.

The U S of A requires me to buy such a permit every year. Perhaps your lack of knowledge is influencing your opinion adversely.

R.J.(Bob) Evans
www.travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com

[Stu Jackson]

Wrong strikes again:

But, but... The Mexican government and officials with authority to affect anyone's life have a long history of abuse, graft and corruption. It is in their DNA. Your optimism is astounding and unsupported by the facts. These kinds of incidents are sport in Mexico...

That's NOT what happened in this case and had nothing whatsoever to do with mordida or corruption. Just basic govt bureaucratic BS.

Maybe you can spend some time doing some homework.

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

Scroll down, it's at the bottom.

For your homework assignment, go to Latitude's homepage and type Mexico in the search box.

Then do some reading on the subject.

What folks are saying, quite nicely and friendly, is that YOU choose to go where you want to go.

Your boat, your choice.

But spewing incorrect advice doesn't help anyone, and that's all anyone who disagrees with you has been saying.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Wrong,

My whole post was not a rebuttal of your contribution here. Just the part about the cruising permit. I should have been more clear.

You personally never called anybody an idiot, but looking back through the thread, there's a lot of misinformed nonsense being put up here, that's the main point.

The question is, just how much weight can be given to a small number of long term Mexico vets who's experiences are personal? Just because I have used a bicycle as my primary mode of transportation for the last 15 years, including in countries I've been to - spanning two near global circumnavigations - and not yet been scraped off the pavement, or peeled from the front of a truck does not mean all cruisers have been so lucky. Misinformed nonsense? Bring it forward so everyone will know what you judge to be "...misinformed nonsense"

Yes, the State Department has issued warnings. Here's the important part-- they are region specific. With the exception of Sinaloa, areas commonly visited by boats aren't really part of the warning. That's the point.

Only part of "...the point". Google "drug cartel Baja Sur" so you'll be more up to date. But, but... That doesn't affect cruisers.... Yet. You see, thats the purpose of warnings and advisories. To alert people so they can respond intelligently.

You might wish to go back and read my original post here. I acknowledged there that Mexico has become a much more dangerous place over these last 10 years. My contention is that it has probably not become more dangerous for CRUISERS. That's all.

Let us know when you've done that exhaustive search I suggested. There are two contentious suggestions contained in your remark; "...it has probably not become more dangerous for CRUISERS". It assumes it has never been AND PROBABLY WON'T become more dangerous for cruisers. As far as I can see, both parts are speculative.

Certainly, if you don't have some tolerance for corruption, Mexico is not the place for you! A very large portion of the world isn't for you either, for that mater. It's just a fact of life in many places, and the petty corruption that happens in Mexico is something that I personally don't find too offensive.

Already aware from first hand personal experience. And, as I stated in an earlier post, there are places - including Mexico - I will probably avoid if I am ever to sail southward again...

I'm far more offended by the large-scale corruption in my own country, to be honest with you. 'Too big to fail' comes to mind, but there are many, many examples of malfeasance happening here that dwarfs anything the Mexicans can come up with.

Not going to be drawn into a conversation about politics, economics and social inequality in the U.S.. I will only say American citizens as a whole are better off than citizens of all but a few of the other economically developed democracies. Comparing America to Mexico is tantamount to whistling dixie to a milestone. There is nothing comparable about them. And, why are so many Mexicans in the U.S. illegally with more wanting to come?

So, I'm not condescending here, really. As I posted previously, if someone looks at the country and decides it's not for them, that's just fine. I have no problem with that. I don't think they're misinformed or hiding in a gated community. Certainly, if one bogus traffic stop every few years is enough to disqualify a country in someone's eyes, it's best not to travel there.

The condescention is embeded in your assumption someone else really cares about or needs your approval.

The thing that I object to is painting the whole country with the same brush, as so often happens. It would be akin to taking Detroit and Chicago's crime stats and projecting them on the entire USA, and making a judgment based on that info. An imperfect comparison, I know, but you get the idea.

TJ

Yeah. I get the idea. Somethin akin to a statement like this:
"I'm far more offended by the large-scale corruption in my own country, to be honest with you. 'Too big to fail' comes to mind, but there are many, many examples of malfeasance happening here that dwarfs anything the Mexicans can come up with".

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by bobofthenorth

The U S of A requires me to buy such a permit every year. Perhaps your lack of knowledge is influencing your opinion adversely.

R.J.(Bob) Evans
www.travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com

So. You are required to have a visa if you sail within 24 n.m. of U.S. terra firma and have no plan to land?