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Old 03-03-2013, 17:28   #211
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by yohun View Post
If you pour another cocktail whilst a 30 foot boat is struggling for survival then you should not be a skipper, The right thing to do at such a time would be to help. Adlars Coles book on Heavy Weather Sailing
Excuse me? Who are you to judge me?

Buying a 30 footer is a choice. When you take it out sailing you will have a tough time when the wind pipes up. I know, I did just that for 17 years. No owners of bigger boats came to comfort me or help me reef. How can they?

Now I have a big boat. When people with a 30' boat want to go out with 40 knots of wind, all I can do to help them is tell them to stay in port... or go out with a dinghy to save them from the reef. I don't go with them to help them endure, nobody does.

Adlars Coles book is historic. I am talking about modern designs, which didn't exist then. I've read an updated version but that is hopeless too and I recently got rid of the book to save weight.

If you want to read a bible-like work on the subject that is a bit more modern then I recommend the Cruising Encyclopedia from Steve and Linda Dashew.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:32   #212
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Actually his work in my opinion was flawed in a way... thats not right... selective is better...
these guys were in a race and were taking things to the limits for to long instead of reefing early and eventually heaving to when the SHTF..
Instead of thinking about the boats it was all about winning..
And lets face another fact.. only one boat actually sank... all the others were abandoned and found afloat later.. if memory serves me well.. I'll check on Wiki in a mo..
As to size... I've survived 10m seas and 70kt winds in the Biscay.. on a 22ftr... 3 60ftr commercial fishing boats went down in the same area that night... one lucky buga huh...!!
Yeah, right. You will stay afloat even in a bucket and so do all sailors that have been at it for all their lives. But that doesn't mean that a bucket is more seaworthy than a HR or Contest etc.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:46   #213
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pirate Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Correction... 24 abandonments of which 5 missing presumed sunk..
That was out of 306 boats with F11 winds in the Irish Sea...
that'll beat the crap outa ya..

Jedi... would not be seen dead in a bucket.... now a Wok... fancy bowsprit... thats another matter.. lol
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:53   #214
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

This is the eaxact Fastnet report
No where in their 74 page report and questionary did the question of LOA came up


YACHT
DESIGN was researched and it was found that some race boats had questionable stability margins


YACHT
CONSTRUCTION was more under the spot light and these areas could have been improved on

Steering
Gear. The damage sustained to steering gear gives grounds for
concern
bl
Watertight
Integrity.
c)
Comfort
and
Security
of
Accommodation.
d)
Deck
Arrangements.
Sails.
Safety
Harnesses.
c) Life
Rafts.
dl Life
Jackets.
e)
Electrics


..

CONCLUSIONS
00.11
We have only attempted recommendations where we think the evidence
justifies this; but a great many other lessons were learnt by competitors
and race organisers in the 1979 Fastnet Race. These are detailed in the body of the
report and are commended to all those who sail offshore or who organise
races. For most of the competitors the sea conditions they encountered were
outside their previous experience, so that errors were inevitable. We have not
attempted to enumerate these errors because the general standards of
seamanship, navigation and certainly of courage, were commendably high.



Nobody ever said in this report that LOA on entries as it is a safety concern
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:03   #215
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Ellen MacArthur endorsed Peter Bruce for the 6th Addition of Alard Coles volumes on Heavy Weather Sailing. I am sure that she is not historic The question still stands...at what length does a boat guarantee the safety of the crew?
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:05   #216
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually his work in my opinion was flawed in a way... thats not right... selective is better...
these guys were in a race and were taking things to the limits for to long instead of reefing early and eventually heaving to when the SHTF..
Instead of thinking about the boats it was all about winning..
And lets face another fact.. only one boat actually sank... all the others were abandoned and found afloat later.. if memory serves me well.. I'll check on Wiki in a mo..
As to size... I've survived 10m seas and 70kt winds in the Biscay.. on a 22ftr... 3 60ftr commercial fishing boats went down in the same area that night... one lucky buga huh...!!
Reading his book I can't agree.

I think although they were in a race it ended up more as a battle for survival and in that context the larger vessels fared better.

A larger number of crews of smaller boats which were inherently more vunerable to high accelerations (had more knockdowns) hastily abandoned their boats even though they were in no immediate danger of sinking heading for their liferafts. Of the 24 abandoned vessels only 5 were not recovered and one of these sank under tow.

His analysis provides tables that showed that the smaller a vessel the more likely and did suffer more BI knockdown (horizontal) and B2 (beyond the horizontal knockdown). This meant the human factor was more of an issue in these vessels. As well as over reliance on liferafts where 7 lives were lost.

He was highly critical of the racing rules in that designers had gone to extremes at the expense of seaworthiness.

I have no doubt than you would not have abandoned in those circumstances.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:05   #217
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pirate Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Jedi... would not be seen dead in a bucket.... lol
Gents, ya know ya gotta be careful with the term "bucket" in these parts.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:17   #218
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Gents, ya know ya gotta be careful with the term "bucket" in these parts.
Agreed, me in my bucket.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:19   #219
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by yohun View Post
Ellen MacArthur endorsed Peter Bruce for the 6th Addition of Alard Coles volumes on Heavy Weather Sailing. I am sure that she is not historic The question still stands...at what length does a boat guarantee the safety of the crew?
Marchaj indicated that "Unfortunately this verdict is a variance with the conclusions and recommendations of the Fastnet report..............

The Fastnet statistics have clearly indicated that size of the boat is, beyond any doubt, an important design factor in a survival situation. But not the only one.......... "

There is now doubt that vessel size is an important factor but not the only factor.

One cannot rely on any one text but Marchaj is certainly essential reading on this subject.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:37   #220
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
Report of boat sinking off Calif. possible hoax
Think of DSC as "caller ID for VHF." There's nothing to the DSC distress function that will prevent you from sending an old-fashioned voice distress call, and if you send a DSC distress message first, it will identify exactly where (if it's connected to GPS) and who (if you registered the MMSI) you are. It also sounds an extremely annoying alarm on every other modern DSC radio within range.
Agree totally but be sure to add AIS and a 406 EPIRB and register it.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:41   #221
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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The question still stands...at what length does a boat guarantee the safety of the crew?
Well, IMO that refutes the oft quoted statement that there is no such thing as a dumb question!

There is NO parameter in boat design that GUARANTEES the safety of the crew. Not one... and I think that we all know that.

Research has shown that there is a relationship between OAL and a vessels resistance to capsize in breaking waves. That one factor should be enough to convince doubters that there is at least some additional safety in larger vessels.

Having made the progression from dinghies through 22, 30, 36 and now 46 foot cruising boats (ie, boats that I have gone cruising in) I have found that the comfort factor does indeed go up with OAL. I have not capsized in any of these boats, but I have experienced 90 degree knockdowns in the 22 and the 36 foot boats. The difference was that in the 22 it happened in 25 knot winds on SF Bay, and in the 36 it was in sustained 50+ knots north of Lord Howe Island in the Tasman Sea. I shudder to think what would have happened there in the smaller boat!

Despite all this data equating enhanced seaworthiness in larger boats, I quite happily sailed from SF to Hawaii and back in my S&S 30. I quite agree that in the hands of a reasonably skilled and conservative sailor, great passages have and will be made in smaller boats. There is no evidence that the skipper of the alleged lost boat was such a person... if he existed at all!

Cheers,

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Old 03-03-2013, 18:44   #222
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Agreed, me in my bucket.

Me in My bucket
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:45   #223
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Gents, ya know ya gotta be careful with the term "bucket" in these parts.
Bucket?
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:48   #224
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

I agree with Downunder completely. One should learn from everything that is available out there. The best skipper makes use of all the resources available. That is why I wanted to join this forum in the first place. To learn.
I volunteered over a 6 year period with a sea rescue outfit. At the time I lived about 9 houses away from the launch station. Needles to say I went out on a lot of missions and heard about those I did not go out on. They rescued anything from a 7 foot windsurfer to a big tankers. I remember going out to a 70' maxi that ran onto the rocks because the "compass was not calibrated" that is what the news papers said.
The drunk skipper was the first to jump on the 21' rescue boat I was on. I think it was a matter of inebriation not calibration. Any size boat is capable of getting into trouble. Does anyone have statistics from the Fastnet that clearly shows that shorter than a certain LOA had a higher than average capsize rate. Bear in mind that the majority of the boats were around and under 40' in length so simple numbers would not suffice. It would have to be apples to apples.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:51   #225
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

In any case, what does the "size matters" argument have to do with this case? I don't think anybody is arguing it was a survival storm. Maybe it was rough, but was it so rough that they are speculating the boat capsized?

The Fastnet boats were race boats, so I don't think most of them were all that relevant to cruisers, though a singlehander was passing through the area at the same time on a J-30 and I think he took a knock down but was otherwise OK. Most of the time he let the boat sail herself on windvane steering while he stayed down below in his bunk.
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