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Old 02-03-2013, 20:57   #196
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Originally Posted by CAELESTIS View Post
No bodies, no wreckage, no distraught relatives=hoax.
I've gone from shock to sadness and now I am angry. They need to be set adrift to see how funny it is! Of course we know better- we would never do that to anyone.
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Old 02-03-2013, 22:17   #197
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Not to throw a wrench in the works but if it is a hoax and living on the coast on and off for 32+ years, there is a possibility of a power boat, maybe commercial, of pulling a drunk hoax like this and getting out of the vicinity quickly.
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Old 03-03-2013, 15:34   #198
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

I agree with Boatsman61.
It is my opinion that the length of a vessel has no bearing on its seaworthiness.
It is tragic when any vessel go missing, even a kayak. Last I heard the nuts that go over Niagara do so in small barrel contaners. The kayaks that go down class four rapids do so in a 6 footer not a 16 footer. Antony Steward circumvented the globe in an 19' TLC. The Mini Transat are in smaller boats.
"Berrimilla" endured 80 plus hours of 60 to 85 knots wind and waves three times the mast height, she is only 33'. Can YOU with 100% certainty say your larger boat can handle that? All the books I have read on hull design mentions 7 design parameters that contributes to stability, none mentions water length or LOA. I was standing in the Bridge of a 125' 330 Ton research vessel in a confused sea. Waves were rolling over the bow reaching up to 4' under the glass. The bridge was three stories higher than the deck. This exact vessel sank several years later in a storm and so did the Titanic. My point is...to question this persons sanity for sailing a small vessel is irrelevant as it is now history, whether a hoax or not. It is also my opinion that any skipper that takes a boat out bigger than the crew can handle is irresponsible. IAW should a person fall overboard and can not be rescued because the remainder of the crew can not turn the vessel around .... now that is insane. Just my 2c.
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Old 03-03-2013, 16:00   #199
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Yohun,

" Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor" by G.A. Marchaj which is one of the definitive texts on the subject.

In his discussion of the lessons of the 1979 fastnet race certainly the smaller vessels were more vunerable to high accelerations, knockdowns resulting in more abandonments and deaths. Certainly the human factor was a big issue as well.
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Old 03-03-2013, 16:38   #200
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Length of the sailboat is a major factor; when a 30 footer is fighting for survival, we pour another cocktail.

Of-course there are small boats that do amazing things, like cross oceans or circumnavigate... but big boats do that too and faster and with less incidents.

There is a formula on high high a wave must be to overcome a boat. The boat-length is a parameter in it.
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Old 03-03-2013, 16:42   #201
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Length of the sailboat is a major factor; when a 30 footer is fighting for survival, we pour another cocktail.

Of-course there are small boats that do amazing things, like cross oceans or circumnavigate... but big boats do that too and faster and with less incidents.

There is a formula on high high a wave must be to overcome a boat. The boat-length is a parameter in it.

I'll spot you faster, but do you have any actual data to support your "less incident" opinion? l'll also spot you more expensive boats are better maintained, but that is a different issue.m
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Old 03-03-2013, 16:44   #202
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Length of the sailboat is a major factor; when a 30 footer is fighting for survival, we pour another cocktail.

Of-course there are small boats that do amazing things, like cross oceans or circumnavigate... but big boats do that too and faster and with less incidents.

There is a formula on high high a wave must be to overcome a boat. The boat-length is a parameter in it.
I agree that seaworthiness is partially a function of how large of a breaking wave that a boat can handle. A ship can handle a 30 foot breaking wave much better than can a 30 foot boat handle the same wave. Length is one of many factors when it comes to seaworthiness.
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Old 03-03-2013, 16:58   #203
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
(...) On the negative side of distance, is the relative low power of VHF Radios.
Yep. I think this is the limiting factor for CG - not all boats have installations that will allow even a relatively powerful ship station at 25W nominal to reach half of its potential range.

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Old 03-03-2013, 17:01   #204
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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post

I'll spot you faster, but do you have any actual data to support your "less incident" opinion? l'll also spot you more expensive boats are better maintained, but that is a different issue.m
Why do you involve maintenance? That is another factor than boat length IMO...

The less incidents... just read about sinking or abandoned yachts, so many 40' boats or smaller. They just get into trouble faster. Like I wrote, conditions at sea are not experienced the same on big and small boats. When it's howling 30-35 knots, how many 30 footers go out for a sail? Well, in the UK they do because sailors there are like terriers, but here in the Caribbean they stay in port. Big boats can just go out and have a lovely sail much like the 30 footer would have at 15-20 knots of wind.

Big boats are also more forgiving.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:07   #205
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
I'll spot you faster, but do you have any actual data to support your "less incident" opinion? l'll also spot you more expensive boats are better maintained, but that is a different issue.m
The data from the Fastnet review highlighted the issues with small vessels.
Look up Marchaj's work on seaworthness as a starting point.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:15   #206
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

If you pour another cocktail whilst a 30 foot boat is struggling for survival then you should not be a skipper, The right thing to do at such a time would be to help. Adlars Coles book on Heavy Weather Sailing uses all the past race incidents incl the Fastnet in his research. In this book (called by some "the bible of heavy weather sailing") it is never mentioned that boat length is a definite marker for safety. There has never been a conclusive agreement on boat length. In the Sidney Hobart race as well as the Fastnet the majority cause was sited as equipment failure. "Drum" and "Rambler" both capsized. If I remember they were both 100' in lenght One can take a log of 10 feet in length and put it abeam a rolling wave and it would roll in the surf, so would a 30 foot log in the same wave. So then if length is a consideration the question is? how big a boat is save in the ocean and will this length guarentee the safety of your crew? So Mr Big Boater, is your boat save? My boat with the sugar scoop connected has a LOA of 44' it weighs in race ready at 4900 lbs. How can this boat have the same safety margins as a 44 foot Alden Cutter weighin in at 24000 lbs?
same length but almost 5 times lighter. There are so many other factors, (far more important) determining whether a boat will survive a storm. The skill and experience of the skipper and crew is high up there.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:18   #207
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
The data from the Fastnet review highlighted the issues with small vessels.
Look up Marchaj's work on seaworthness as a starting point.
While I agree that this data is useful, we must take care not to venture into racers too much as they are less seaworthy by design, especially as they become more extreme every year.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:22   #208
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

I have to go with Jedi and Steve Dashew on this one, length does matter. I've been in seas that even the 64' Sundeer would get thrashed, but at 258 m (839') it was just a bumpy ride on the Sea~Land Developer.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:25   #209
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Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

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While I agree that this data is useful, we must take care not to venture into racers too much as they are less seaworthy by design, especially as they become more extreme every year.
Length of vessel is only one of the many factors influencing seaworthiness. One of Marchaj's points was that the racing rules had meant designers were developing to fit the rules rather than for seaworthiness.
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:25   #210
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pirate Re: Missing Vessel (Northern California), 4 souls

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
The data from the Fastnet review highlighted the issues with small vessels.
Look up Marchaj's work on seaworthness as a starting point.
Actually his work in my opinion was flawed in a way... thats not right... selective is better...
these guys were in a race and were taking things to the limits for to long instead of reefing early and eventually heaving to when the SHTF..
Instead of thinking about the boats it was all about winning..
And lets face another fact.. only one boat actually sank... all the others were abandoned and found afloat later.. if memory serves me well.. I'll check on Wiki in a mo..
As to size... I've survived 10m seas and 70kt winds in the Biscay.. on a 22ftr... 3 60ftr commercial fishing boats went down in the same area that night... one lucky buga huh...!!
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