Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-04-2015, 16:31   #31
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Boat: 47' Steel Roberts Cutter
Posts: 237
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I'm not following your logic here. They intentionally registered their decidedly commercial vessel a yacht, the reason you do that is to dodge regulators. I am sure they registered yacht because the boat didn't have adequate safety equipment or adequately trained crew to achieve Transport Canada Near Coastal Certification. This very much is about regulations.

If the boat had been properly inspected TCMSS would have slapped a do not sail order on her and shed still be tied up in Hamilton.



Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Nope, sorry you are missing the point here. They fully met all of the transport canada regs for the operations for which they were licensed- which is harbour sailing with tourists. The vessel was perfectly adequate and suitably equipped for that role- and blessed to perform it by the ship safety inspectors; who do quite a rigorous annual inspection. I've been through several and it is not a trivial activity.


When the vessel leaves waters for which she is licensed- with no paying passengers and not under any commercial contract - there is nothing saying they are doing anything wrong according to the rules under which she is commercially licensed. Many, many vessels all over the world register as yachts and operate for part of the year as commercial vessels- meeting the letter and intent of the rules in both operating states. This in itself is not a bad thing.

Clearly however, they were not prepared, equipped or manned for the passage.
__________________

__________________
NSboatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 17:15   #32
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSboatman View Post
Nope, sorry you are missing the point here. They fully met all of the transport canada regs for the operations for which they were licensed- which is harbour sailing with tourists. The vessel was perfectly adequate and suitably equipped for that role- and blessed to perform it by the ship safety inspectors; who do quite a rigorous annual inspection. I've been through several and it is not a trivial activity.


When the vessel leaves waters for which she is licensed- with no paying passengers and not under any commercial contract - there is nothing saying they are doing anything wrong according to the rules under which she is commercially licensed. Many, many vessels all over the world register as yachts and operate for part of the year as commercial vessels- meeting the letter and intent of the rules in both operating states. This in itself is not a bad thing.

Clearly however, they were not prepared, equipped or manned for the passage.
Yes, many vessels exploit the loop hole in the regulations, that permits this, Green Peace and Sea Sheppard are two examples of vessels who register as yachts so they can circumvent TC regulations.

Last time I checked, when I deliver commercial vessels that are licensed for Sheltered Waters I get, the necessary equipment, EPIRB, immersion suits, covered life raft and I have the vessel reinspected and the safe manning document changed to reflect the voyage. THAT is how one follows the letter and intent of the law.

What these gentleman did was maybe follow the letter of the law, definitely not follow the intent of the law, and very likely used a degree of deception to avoid proper certification.

So there is clearly a regulatory loop hole that Transport Canada needs to close. Clearly there are vessels engaging on voyages with commercial intent and exploiting a loop hole to register as pleasure craft.

The only way you can deliver a commercial vessel on a commercial voyage registered as a yacht in or from Canadian waters is to lie. Except they didn't get away with it, their ruse caused them to be dismasted and disabled.



Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 17:40   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 324
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

@jackdale-entirely agree.

Ill-conceived,ill-equipped,ill-prepared.
Hubis action based upon economic need.
Heart bigger than head/brain.
Next time......


All the Best
__________________
Arthur Garfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 17:54   #34
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 19:52   #35
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Boat: 47' Steel Roberts Cutter
Posts: 237
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

hey familyvan, don't get me wrong - I think they did a lot of stuff wrong here, no question. I'm not for a second suggesting otherwise. I agree too on the need (obviously) to properly prepare, equip and plan a voyage - and to not take vessels offshore that are not capable of being there in the first place.

however, this was not a commercial voyage. this was a delivery between ports of a private yacht. same thing most of the members on this forum do. There was no loop hole that they were exploiting in this case.

You seem to be suggesting that all vessels that are licensed for harbor work, also be equipped for offshore voyages - which is clearly not possible.

I think it's an unattractive boat, and was clearly carelessly conducted and ill prepared in this case... but let's stick to the facts and realm of possible here, and not condemn a whole system. greenpeace and sea shephard? really? tenuous link I think...

...but we do agree on intent and safe conduct offshore for sure.

happy easter - you guys emerging from the white in central canada yet? we're still completely buried!! so much for fishing season starting yesterday...
__________________
NSboatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 20:18   #36
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

NS, have you been to their website? They are clearly advertising a commercial venture in the Caribean. They were engaged in business in Halifax, they were delivering the boat to the caribean to conduct business. That's a commercial delivery no matter how you slice it.

A ships inspection certificate doesn't cease to be in effect when passengers are not on board, it's still a commercial vessel in between passenger carrying trips. A tug doesn't cease to be a commercial vessel when its transiting between Tows. A freighter running lightship on their way to pick up cargoes doesn't revert to yacht status- having passengers actually on board doesn't change its status as a commercial vessel. These guys just picked and chose which regulations they would follow and crossed their fingers and hoped nobody would find out.

Now say on your gaff rig, you decided to take her down to the caribean to pleasure cruise for 6 months, that would be a different matter, but these guys were going down to make money.

I have done dozens of commercial deliveries, often times with sheltered waters vessels, including several traditional style sailboats. Yes, I always get them properly certified for near coastal work. I don't pretend that the 100' sheltered waters paddle wheeler I'm on is actually a pleasure craft and pay my crew under the table because it would be wrong and illegal. Coincidentally- I've also never had to abandon ship off of Massachusetts in weather it made no sense to be in.

These people took lots of short cuts, one of those short cuts was cheating on their inspection.

Happy Easter to you to. The snow is gone here, but the lake ice isn't. The Seaway opened yesterday, so at least ships are moving again.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 20:40   #37
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Boat: 47' Steel Roberts Cutter
Posts: 237
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Yep, understand they were engaged in business here and at least planned on being so there, but I fail to see how you can say that they cheated on their inspection. Were you there? Have you seen it? Were there deficiencies listed or did they cheat somehow to get the limited approvals to operate as a passenger vessel in Halifax? And if so, how is that relevant to the current abandoning offshore?

The vessel carries a transport canada inspection certificate for specific waters and specific activities only- the confines of halifax harbor.

Outside of those waters not engaged in passenger carrying, it is not licensed or recognized by transport canada as anything other than a yacht, period. She is registered as a private yacht, and is required to meet only the regs for yachts in that instance.

They may have been foolhardy and definitely ill prepared, but they were breaking no laws doing this. Is this what you mean by a loophole?

It would be interesting to hear what their insurance company had to say about it...

...just looked outside. It's freaking snowing again. I've had enough!!!
__________________
NSboatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 21:09   #38
So many boats, so little time.

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Channel Islands Harbor, California, USA
Boat: FYC Club boats, 22 to 40.
Posts: 111
Images: 1
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Contrast: how competent and prepared crews handle difficulty.
Dismasted, and still making 8 - 10 knots:

"Dongfeng Race Team, one of six 65-foot racing yachts participating in the Volvo Ocean Race was dismasted early on Monday, March 30th.

Race officials note that nobody has been injured and there is no immediate danger to the crew and the incident happened 240 nautical miles west of Cape Horn.

The crew reports that the mast broke above the second spreader (the top section of the mast), here’s the onboard video of the incident:
Dongfeng Race Team Dismasted in the Southern Ocean - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News
In their latest report, they note they are making 8 to 10 knots of speed toward Cape Horn while flying their J-3 and are scouring the charts to find a place where they can duck in and try to take their sail down and jury rig up something more suitable to help them get to Itajai, Brazil."
And continuing on towards...Cape Horn.
__________________
td0tz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2015, 21:51   #39
Registered User
 
ryon's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 588
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
Yes, many vessels exploit the loop hole in the regulations, that permits this, Green Peace and Sea Sheppard are two examples of vessels who register as yachts so they can circumvent TC regulations.

Last time I checked, when I deliver commercial vessels that are licensed for Sheltered Waters I get, the necessary equipment, EPIRB, immersion suits, covered life raft and I have the vessel reinspected and the safe manning document changed to reflect the voyage. THAT is how one follows the letter and intent of the law.

What these gentleman did was maybe follow the letter of the law, definitely not follow the intent of the law, and very likely used a degree of deception to avoid proper certification.

So there is clearly a regulatory loop hole that Transport Canada needs to close. Clearly there are vessels engaging on voyages with commercial intent and exploiting a loop hole to register as pleasure craft.

The only way you can deliver a commercial vessel on a commercial voyage registered as a yacht in or from Canadian waters is to lie. Except they didn't get away with it, their ruse caused them to be dismasted and disabled.



Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
So if they were LYING, and I'll let you be the expert on that, is that any reason to rain down another load of new and arbitrary restrictions on the rest of us? I probably have a story of a less-than-competent inspector causing unnecessary grief and expense to the public for every 24 year-old wanna-be pirate you can name. And apologies to any safe and experienced 24 year-olds that statement might malign.
__________________
ryon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 00:54   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Halifax
Posts: 435
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

As I understand it too, transiting the boat as a yacht meets the letter of the law, and in respect to following the intent of law, it is my experience, sadly, that folk generally do not do that, irrespective of the size and complexity of their business.

It was their good fortune that the bartender was not hurt in the dismasting as I suspect him/her to be the most experienced professional aboard the boat.

I believe the real issue here is the extent to which sailors (and I use this term loosely) should be offered free taxpayer funded rescue services on demand. I have no idea how you would implement an user/idiot pay program for rescue without affecting the opportunities for skilled and prepared sailors to cruise, but I sure wish we had one. These guys, from their recent comments, still don't seem to have a clue despite having been rescued twice this winter. They are really to stupid to get it. Part of me wants to say let em' drown, and I guess I just did.
__________________
Brob2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 05:38   #41
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSboatman View Post
Yep, understand they were engaged in business here and at least planned on being so there, but I fail to see how you can say that they cheated on their inspection. Were you there? Have you seen it? Were there deficiencies listed or did they cheat somehow to get the limited approvals to operate as a passenger vessel in Halifax? And if so, how is that relevant to the current abandoning offshore?

The vessel carries a transport canada inspection certificate for specific waters and specific activities only- the confines of halifax harbor.

Outside of those waters not engaged in passenger carrying, it is not licensed or recognized by transport canada as anything other than a yacht, period. She is registered as a private yacht, and is required to meet only the regs for yachts in that instance.

They may have been foolhardy and definitely ill prepared, but they were breaking no laws doing this. Is this what you mean by a loophole?

It would be interesting to hear what their insurance company had to say about it...

...just looked outside. It's freaking snowing again. I've had enough!!!
I'm just going to opt out of this discussion. The regulations dont refer to the business you are engaged in but refer to the intended use. If you people feel the intended use of the vessel was pleasure, then I guess it was. I've been aboard this vessel and she doesn't look like a pleasure craft to me. I have some difficulty believing somebody would be 60 miles off the coast of Massachusettes on a flat bottom tourist attraction pirate boat in March or early April for pleasure.

I'm not suggesting they lied at there inspection I'm suggesting they misrepresented there vessel to avoid inspection. I'm not going to change any ones opinions on pleasure vs commercial use though, so I'm going to move on to another thread.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 10:14   #42
Registered User
 
hamburking's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kingston Ont Canada
Boat: Looking for my next boat!
Posts: 2,148
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

This article on GCaptain I think sums it up well, complete with video.

Playing Pirate Does Not a Sailor Make - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News
__________________
hamburking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 22:50   #43
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

I watched the video and this stuff always eerks me. A total joke of their situation by what people are calling a crew, when in reality they are a bunch of amateurs.
Clearly, the vessel (a tourist attraction) was not meant to be much out of the harbor and yet was. So who decided to to do that. It seems to me, these jokers had no idea how serious open water can be.
I have an ad on a crew site looking for crew. Recently, I got a response from a young couple who would of fit in perfectly with this bunch of clowns. There profile pictures were them making funny faces. No experience but willing to learn on the way. I told them exactly what I thought...with no experience and a lack of maturity, they did not stand a chance of getting a crew position on any boat. There was an ensuing exchange of comments that followed, enforcing their immaturity. Just reminded me of this group being the same way.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2015, 10:10   #44
Registered User
 
Cpt Pat's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2012
Boat: Pearson Ariel, 26 feet
Posts: 158
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I watched the video and this stuff always eerks me. A total joke of their situation by what people are calling a crew, when in reality they are a bunch of amateurs.
Clearly, the vessel (a tourist attraction) was not meant to be much out of the harbor and yet was. So who decided to to do that. It seems to me, these jokers had no idea how serious open water can be.
I have an ad on a crew site looking for crew. Recently, I got a response from a young couple who would of fit in perfectly with this bunch of clowns. There profile pictures were them making funny faces. No experience but willing to learn on the way. I told them exactly what I thought...with no experience and a lack of maturity, they did not stand a chance of getting a crew position on any boat. There was an ensuing exchange of comments that followed, enforcing their immaturity. Just reminded me of this group being the same way.
I agree. I give sailing instruction, and I've encountered too many young people who are attracted only to the "romance" of sailing. They are dismayed when they learn that it can entail significant discomfort, effort to learn aerodynamics/hydrodynamics and navigation, and that situations will likely arise where they must struggle against the elements.
__________________
Cpt Pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2015, 10:25   #45
Registered User
 
hamburking's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kingston Ont Canada
Boat: Looking for my next boat!
Posts: 2,148
Re: Liana's Ransom Abandoned at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
I agree. I give sailing instruction, and I've encountered too many young people who are attracted only to the "romance" of sailing. They are dismayed when they learn that it can entail significant discomfort, effort to learn aerodynamics/hydrodynamics and navigation, and that situations will likely arise where they must struggle against the elements.
You are correct. You just described almost every guest I've taken sailing on my boat. They are all happy and excited, until I ask them to pull a line, hold the tiller, or turn a winch. The only work they want to do is hold a drink and take selfies. There is a real disconnect between the idea of sailing and actual sailing. When I crossed the ocean on a nightmare voyage, my friends and family thought of it as a "vacation...how nice".
__________________

__________________
hamburking is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew taken off 85-foot schooner "Liana's Ransom" Cormorant Cruising News & Events 0 31-03-2015 05:45
S/V 'Quantum Leap' - Abandoned at Sea SkiprJohn Cruising News & Events 11 13-12-2011 13:34
Valiant 42 Abandoned at Sea - Two Crew Lost Hud3 General Sailing Forum 61 31-08-2010 08:01
Chandlers: $430,000 Ransom Paid ! MarkJ Cruising News & Events 4 15-07-2010 09:59
Locations Of Sunken Or Abandoned Ships & Boats CaptainK The Sailor's Confessional 4 12-01-2006 11:46



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.