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Old 24-08-2009, 14:13   #31
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As per Anjou said "... US waters ...".

Well, then perhaps she will just cross the US from her cruising itinerary. Why should she go there anyway sailing around the world from the Netherlands ??? (presuming she takes the 'easy' route)

But to go around being 13 I am sorry but I dot buy it. It might be she just loves sailing and wants to go for it. OK. But how will her formal education be affected? I am not against children onboard or young persons circumnavigating, etc.. but I believe a 13 y.o. is a very bad moment - educationally, socially, mentally, physically.

Are we sure it is not yet another case where youngsters are manouvered into meeting their parents'/sponsors' ends?

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Old 24-08-2009, 14:24   #32
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When I was 13 I was driving, held down 2 part time jobs and one full time job and was saving money for school in the fall. (New Mexico allows a motorcycle license to a 13 yo)
People mature at different rates, and don't underestimate a 13 year old.
I do worry about the isolation on a 13 yo's psyche though....teens need socialization.
And yeah Tao, Nobody new I was that young where I worked, and I didn't make a web page about it. In fact I saw my first PC 7 years later
Jeeze, Probie (sorry, everyone, that's a little joke between Newt and me), it sounds like we had similar starts in life. I grew up next door to NM, in Colorado, and also worked two jobs at 13 - got up at 5am to deliver the Rocky Mountain News and worked in the evening at a greasy spoon restaurant washing dishes. Couldn't drive a motor scooter (Cushman Eagle) until I was 14, though.

It was "OK" in Colorado to work those two jobs at 13 - The Rocky Mountain News only required the parents permission and the guy who owned the dive restaurant paid cash (65 cents/hour), reported nothing, and illegally employing child laborers was just one of a long list of laws, rules, and health codes he flagrantly violated.

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Old 24-08-2009, 14:41   #33
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As I read it, this girl has already done a circumnavigation with her parents. If so, she has more experience than most of us.

Its curious, we read about 13 year olds doing drugs, getting pregnant and doing really awful things every day, yet not an eyebrow is raised; ho hum.. more trailer trash we say as we turn the page and write it off.

And yet, when this young lady wants to have a go at putting her name in the record books in what is, for the most part, a quite a wholesome activity its met with howls of protest, government interference, calls for child protection, etc etc.

A paradox, no?
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Old 24-08-2009, 16:08   #34
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As I read it, this girl has already done a circumnavigation with her parents. If so, she has more experience than most of us.

Its curious, we read about 13 year olds doing drugs, getting pregnant and doing really awful things every day, yet not an eyebrow is raised; ho hum.. more trailer trash we say as we turn the page and write it off.

And yet, when this young lady wants to have a go at putting her name in the record books in what is, for the most part, a quite a wholesome activity its met with howls of protest, government interference, calls for child protection, etc etc.

A paradox, no?
I'm with ya on this one!

I think the problem most people have with the age issue is that they compare her to other 13 year olds. The mass majority of children are all taught at the same slow-ass rate. Parents are too busy working and paying for huge homes to raise and teach they're child at any rate other than the governments pace.

This girl has probably been educated at an accelerated rate, and much of her learning has probably been about sailing.

Never having met her I think it would be hard to judge her based on age.
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Old 24-08-2009, 17:45   #35
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Uh, I think if you were to recast the issue as a 13 year old girl whose parents believe her to be "mature" enough to have sex and raise a family, suddenly opinions change.

I think we certainly do raise an unapproving eyebrow.
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Old 24-08-2009, 18:22   #36
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Remember all those other threads over the last few years where the kids get younger and younger and I have been calling their parents fools and most comments on the forum say I'm the fool.

Now we get to 13 years old.

Well the fools are the people who promote and back up these children. Even those that offer their tacit support in these threads

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Old 24-08-2009, 18:51   #37
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You've won me over, Mark. I thought what Zac Sunderland did was pretty cool - even the British boy's soon-to-be-completed breaking of Zac's record is OK, if gold-plated. But letting a 13 year-old girl attempt this stunt is absolutely foolhardy.

anotherT34C's take on it certainly paints a sobering picture, in my view.

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Old 24-08-2009, 19:28   #38
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Its curious, we read about 13 year olds doing drugs, getting pregnant and doing really awful things every day, yet not an eyebrow is raised; ho hum.. more trailer trash we say as we turn the page and write it off.
Maybe there's lots of parents who wouldn't mind packing their teen off on a boat for a year or so. I know my sister-in-law considered much worse -

My concern here is that parents have decided something for their kid and "society" can step in and say no.

There are areas of child safety that causes society to step in for the welfare of the child. This is an established practice in civilized countries. With the information we have we know the parents are experienced sea people and the parents and child have already made a circumnavigation and presumably know the risks and the challenges.

The two questions to be resolved are: Are the parents putting this child at risk for fame, glory or some other useles purpose. Do the parents and child have the capacity to make this decision and mitigate the risks as much as possible so not to unduly endnger the kid? Clearly the kid cannot make this decision so someone else has to make it for her. Should that be the parents or the courts?

There are parents who let their kids go down half pipes on skateboards. There are parents who let their kids participate in extreme motorcycle aerial stunts and many of these kids have been seriously injured.

Bad parenting? Should we step in and say parents can't let their kids participate in these activities?

Formula 1 race car drivers usually start in very fast and high performance carts in single digit ages. Safe or not?

In this case I don't know all the facts. I would say that if this 13 year old can do it then she is in probably the less than 1% of all 13 yer olds that could. It is right for the courts to question this as it is right for us to debate and if the courts judge yes then so be it.

I know my 12 year old wouldn't have a shot of doing this even with a year's more practice. I have no clue whether this 13 year old can, and one thing for sure, I can't judge from her picture on the internet.
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:39   #39
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The two questions to be resolved are: Are the parents putting this child at risk for fame, glory or some other useles purpose. Do the parents and child have the capacity to make this decision and mitigate the risks as much as possible so not to unduly endnger the kid? Clearly the kid cannot make this decision so someone else has to make it for her. Should that be the parents or the courts?
Question 1: irrelevant - they are putting a child at risk is all thaty is important here. The reason(s) are irrelevant.

Question 2: the parents have abrogated their responsibility to minimize risk to the child regardless of how well prepared a 13 year old can conceivably be. It is patently obvious the parents are incapable of sound judgment.
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:41   #40
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I have a daughter who is 12 and a half. She is very responsible for her age, was specially selected for a program that rewards over achieving children by preparing them for college beginning in the 7th grade. She is an exceptional child.

Having said that, I would never trust my daughter to make life or death decisions especially with the type and degree of stress under which the girl from Holland will be forced to make hers. Kids/teens react emotionally not calmly and rationally in times of stress. It's a frontal lobe thing.

Then there are the non-sailing types of danger. What types of people will she encounter in her travels? She is a young pretty girl, alone, lacking experience, and/or the skills to handle the dangerous, cunning, and exploitive people she undoubtedly will be forced to confront. Having spent a significant portion of my life in the worst parts of various large cities I can assure you that a young girl like that with no one to watch over her will be easy pickins. As a teen I tramped around the United States riding freight trains, hitchhiking, and making money by doing farm work or whatever I could to survive, and even then as an older male teen I had trouble staying safe. What are the odds that she will be able to avoid harm? I wouldn't let my daughter travel alone through the ghetto and I wouldn't allow her to be alone in some isolated place in the middle of God knows where with God knows who preying on her.

What's really going on here? Are the parents exploiting their daughter for money, prestige, and fame? We have a responsibility to protect our children until they're able to protect herself.

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Old 24-08-2009, 20:15   #41
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What Zac did and what the other boy / young man is doing would be all cool if they were doing it for themselves by themselves. But then probably we would have never heard of their existence.

There is a huge media campaign beyond every such attempt. Why do we learn of the attempt before it has been successful? Actually, even before it has been attempted?

And the argument that "she has done it before" may be right or wrong - for it is not the same to drive and to sit in the front seat, is it? And doing it solo by a 13 y.o. girl is not the same as doing it in the crew of three, with the father and mother probably doing 9X percent of the 'job'.

How will she handle loneliness, and will her parents accept the responsibility if she does not? How will the media pressure affect her ability to sound judgment if she meets with a situation when to give up is what conditions dictate?

And why can't she do it in a couple of years - with even more experience, more psychological and physical strength, better understanding of the way our choices influence our options later in life?

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Old 24-08-2009, 20:15   #42
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Question 1: irrelevant - they are putting a child at risk is all thaty is important here. The reason(s) are irrelevant.

Question 2: the parents have abrogated their responsibility to minimize risk to the child regardless of how well prepared a 13 year old can conceivably be. It is patently obvious the parents are incapable of sound judgment.
You sort of dismissed my point or didn't absorb the post.

Parents allow their kids to be put at risk all the time - hence the motorcycling, skatboarding and go carting comparisons.

Should we disallow that as well.

I don't judge that this is advisable. I do recognize that I am in no position to judge. No one on this forum is.

Q2 - I have no Idea how you can say it is patently obvious. We have no idea how the journey will be structured. The could have a 90 foot chase boat 100 meters off the stern for the whole journey. I do believe the no 13 year old has the decision making ability to plan and execute the journey on their own.
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Old 24-08-2009, 20:20   #43
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Mature girls / immature boys

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You've won me over, Mark. I thought what Zac Sunderland did was pretty cool - even the British boy's soon-to-be-completed breaking of Zac's record is OK, if gold-plated. But letting a 13 year-old girl attempt this stunt is absolutely foolhardy. ....
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Lately it is the girls who have been maturing much better than the boys. In fact a Canadian documentary recently showed how many boys are becoming infertile or simply not getting born. 2 live girls are born for each boy. If they are going to have to scour the world for healthy husbands we had better let them get started.
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Old 24-08-2009, 20:24   #44
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I don;t like the goverment limiting our liberties. But on the other hand, having raised two daughters, there is no way in hell I would let my 13 year old do this. If she wants to have a record, she could still train for the next two years, then do it and still have a record. There is no rush! Two more years of physical, mental, navigational, and sailing training. Having said all that, do I want the goverment to step in? NO. Do I think the parents are idiots? YES

I would rather us have the freedom to be stupid and die, than to live as a safe idiot.
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Old 24-08-2009, 21:54   #45
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Then there are the non-sailing types of danger. What types of people will she encounter in her travels? She is a young pretty girl, alone, lacking experience, and/or the skills to handle the dangerous, cunning, and exploitive people she undoubtedly will be forced to confront.
This could be the most dangerous part. She must be a pretty competent sailor if the parents are on board, and sailing in the north sea is not bad for training grounds.

These 'non-sailing dangers' are much more difficult to prepare for.
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