How NOT to fund the cruising kitty: Welfare Fraud

[BandB]

Originally Posted by MBLittle

People need to reevaluate how they throw the word "disabled" around.

My wife collects disability from the VA for PTSD from overseas duty. Yet you'd see her handling a 40' boat...

Are there cheats and liars? For sure. Its not exclusive to the US or even to "disabled" people.

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We also have members here who are on disability. I caution people to be very careful of judging based on sight. There are many forms of disability that don't appear so obvious.

For those who cheat, I applaud when they are caught. But let that not be used negatively toward those who are legitimately disabled. Social Security and Insurers are generally quite diligent in reviewing eligibility.

For other forms of government assistance such as SSI, then it's very difficult to police those who aren't deserving without harming those who are.

[Pelagic]

As Hellosailer illustrated.... The problem with moral fibre is that it can make you Regular,Constipated, or excreting lots of BS.
Different countries, different cultures and different perspectives seems to be what guides local and personal tolerance.
I can recommend the mirror test, but only for myself.

[mausgras]

It seems the concensus in the topic is that welfare is good and necessary and we just have to tolerate the minority that cheat on the interest of the greater good.
The other side of the coin is welfare dependency. When welfare becomes a crutch to which the recipient becomes addicted. They then lack the incentive to return to the workforce, accepting a sub standard of living when they could better themselves.

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[atoll]

for some it is a way of life

Couple claim £50,000 in benefits while spending two years sailing the world - Telegraph

[BandB]

Originally Posted by atoll

for some it is a way of life

Couple claim £50,000 in benefits while spending two years sailing the world - Telegraph

It is so sad for those with legitimate needs that there are those who commit such fraud. Then they are looked down on as well. We can't tell just by looking and have to be slow to judge but clearly here in this thread we have two examples of fraud.

It reminds me of a guy who had supposedly received a neck injury in an auto accident but spent every day in the summer on the lake boating and water skiing, then went to the 19th Hole (bar) to drink.

In business it was always a challenge to know. On those we suspected of fraud, we did use a private detective. The answer came back quickly. It would be that many times, "They are not doing anything inconsistent with their injury."

Then there was the time one had a knee injury that prevented him doing a job requiring standing but was seen mowing his yard with a push mower and then running and playing football all afternoon with his kids in the yard. We did this when his lawyer was pressing us to settle. We'd offered pain management which he'd refused and that made us suspicious. If you have pain and get offered pain management while being paid not to work, you generally accept it. Well, sent his lawyer the video. Received the call from the employee that he'd be returning on Monday. We were suspicious all along as this occurred right after a job warning putting him on a corrective plan to keep his job.

Then I remember one who couldn't work but we found out owned a bar that he ran and he worked there from open to close three days a week, plus some other time.

But my mother in her latter years had been through several open heart surgeries. She looked perfectly healthy getting out of her car walking in a store. What you couldn't see was that just inside the store she'd have to sit. And if she walked to the back of the store she'd sit twice more on the way.

The problem is that the vast majority are legitimate and the others give them a bad name. But it's so hard to week out the abusers. Thing is they all have friends or family who know they abuse. I've often regretted not turning the 19th hole guy in, but I was young at the time. And for those who have no physical problems but instead mental issues, we can't tell. And let me assure you that those with true mental illnesses such as PTSD or Bi-Polar or Panic Disorder or even severe depression and anxiety would trade those any day for physical conditions. What they suffer from is a far worse pain and way of living.

When I read a thread like this though where we do come down hard on abusers, law breakers, as we should, it gives me one additional pause. We have many discussions in other threads here of ways to break the law and work where we can't legally or of ways to avoid taxes by skirting outside the law (not talking legitimate avoidance or reduction), ways of taking illegally travel places. I see in some of those threads thoughts that it hurts no one. But it does. It creates an atmosphere in which one decides what laws to follow and not follow. Then suddenly one justifies violations like in this thread. I'm sure these people have a great justification they used such as "Everyone does it" or "Our government wastes money every day, which shouldn't I have some" or "I paid in, now I'm just taking out."

I've personally chosen to have no offshore investments, no tax avoidance schemes, to flag my boat in the US. I'm not like some here who live everywhere and nowhere permanently. I do live in the US. And as long as I do then I'm not going to try to avoid any of the costs of doing so. And I judge abusers like the ones mentioned in these articles harshly, more for what they do to the innocent in need than what they do to me. And the one I see who I have no way of knowing, gets the benefit of the doubt from me unless or until I know otherwise.

[Hud3]

For two years, Shashi Bacheta and her partner sailed halfway round the world on their 70ft yacht, sun-kissed and living the lives of millionaires.

Setting aside the welfare fraud issue for a moment, let's take a look at it from a cost of cruising standpoint in the spirit of the "Cruising on $500/mo" and "Cruising on $5,000/mo" threads that have captured so much interest here on CF. The above quote from Atoll's article link describes the couple as "living the lives of millionaires".

Hmmm. A £100,000 GBP ($165,000 USD) boat. Well, that's probably a bit above average for the CF crowd, but certainly not in the "millionaire" stratosphere.

£50,000 GBP in welfare income for two years. That's about $3,400 USD per month. Pretty much solidly in the middle of the $500/mo to $5,000/mo range.

Hardly "millionaire" style, but definitely in the "comfortable cruising" range, I'd say. It does look like they're having fun..

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Hud3

Setting aside the welfare fraud issue for a moment, let's take a look at it from a cost of cruising standpoint in the spirit of the "Cruising on $500/mo" and "Cruising on $5,000/mo" threads that have captured so much interest here on CF. The above quote from Atoll's article link describes the couple as "living the lives of millionaires".

Hmmm. A £100,000 GBP ($165,000 USD) boat. Well, that's probably a bit above average for the CF crowd, but certainly not in the "millionaire" stratosphere.

£50,000 GBP in welfare income for two years. That's about $3,400 USD per month. Pretty much solidly in the middle of the $500/mo to $5,000/mo range.

Hardly "millionaire" style, but definitely in the "comfortable cruising" range, I'd say. It does look like they're having fun..

Very true and an example of the hyperbole that often accompanies a story like this one. Shoddy reporting to get a better headline. But then true journalism died a couple of decades ago. Journalism once was about the facts and the headline tied to the story. Now it's about sound bites and spectacular headlines and gaining views online.

[captain58sailin]

I find it amusing that people scream about a $50,000 scammer, yet we are being defrauded in the billions by crooked politicians and the military industrial complex. Not to mention the old money folks that use the system to dodge millions in tax liability. I don't condone any of the scammers, but put it in a real world perspective.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by MBLittle

So you're saying disabled veterans are getting free money? Really? REALLY?

I must have missed this massive amount of luxury cars with disabled veteran license plates, even though I was on the road 9 hours a day.

Either way, if they are receiving disability compensation from the VA (which by the way can be as low as $130 a month) from service connected (the only way to get money from the VA) disabilities brought on by a decade of war so you can sit pretty in your trailer and bash them, then I say good on them for getting what they deserve. Believe me, it sure as hell isn't enough.

We torture our vets & military retirees like pulling wings off flies while the praying mantises in Washington draw obscene pensions for as little as 2 years dis-service. Take a bite out of crime - reelect no one.

Not a vet, didn't serve but I respect every one of these fine people I've met and work with. They deserve all the needed assistance we can muster and without hassles or delays.

Very proud of my nephew, West Point grad, Marksman, Engineer, Captain - sapper, tour in Pakistan, returned with all parts & sanity.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by mausgras

It seems the concensus in the topic is that welfare is good and necessary and we just have to tolerate the minority that cheat on the interest of the greater good.
The other side of the coin is welfare dependency. When welfare becomes a crutch to which the recipient becomes addicted. They then lack the incentive to return to the workforce, accepting a sub standard of living when they could better themselves.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I agree whole heartedly. One really big problem is that for many going to work nets them no more and often less than staying on welfare.
That's broke and "we" need to fix that. A honest days work in an entry level job should allow someone to live slightly above the poverty level, not in it.
One thing that has caused this problem is that the average income of the "working class" has been flat since the late 70's, while the earnings of the 1% of the top earners has escalated astronomically. Used to be the average welder, mechanic, plumber etc. if they worked hard and long could live a good life.
That's gone, first our wives went to work, that kept us above water for 20 yrs or so, then we had to start borrowing against our houses etc. and debt blossomed, that's where we are now.

Now understand please that I am about as Right winged conservative person as could be, I'm a Retired Military Officer, pretty serious Christian, living in the Deep South. Ronald Reagan and John Wayne are my Hero's.
If I believe economic distribution of this country is broken as much as a right winger as I am, what does the left think?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

sociopaths - The didn't even keep a low profile. Its always a shock when you run into people with no moral fiber.

Hi

[Tar34]

Wonder what WWll vets would have thought and think about all theses PTSD disability payments. Not saying some are truly disabled but just from the comments in this small thread, it's obvious the system is fraught with fraud and and 21st century entitlement mores. What the hell, we'll just let our children and grandchildren worry about it.

[MBLittle]

Originally Posted by Tar34

Wonder what WWll vets would have thought and think about all theses PTSD disability payments. Not saying some are truly disabled but just from the comments in this small thread, it's obvious the system is fraught with fraud and and 21st century entitlement mores. What the hell, we'll just let our children and grandchildren worry about it.

WWII vets didn't suffer from PTSD?

Funny, my wife's grandfather drank like a fish and beat his family for years after he came back from WWII. Was never able to have a real job and the entire family suffered for decades. 9 people directly scarred for life from a life of torment simply because their father and husband "had nothing wrong with him." Not to mention the dozens of grandkids who grew up with the remnants of abuse. Some being abused themselves.

If only there was a way to cope with "shell shock" and seek help without being branded a pansy or welfare recipient.

Gladly and thankfully, now we have soldiers who are injured mentally and physically and we take care of them. Instead of telling them to "be a man and deal with it."

I wonder how many families we're saving now that the old mindset is dying with the ignorant fools who hold them. Dying, apparently, not fast enough. One can only hope the poison is lost on the next generations.

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[Ocean Girl]

I have never wanted to box some ears more than I do when I hear comments like on this thread. I am amazed at the ignorance and intolerance, always seems that former cannot live without the latter.

"The Department of Veterans Affairs' promise to end by 2015 its massive, benefits backlog for disabled veterans has "stalled," according to an analysis released Monday by a leading veterans' organization.

After slicing its glut of pending claims from a peak of 600,000 cases in March 2013 to 400,000 in November, the VA has been unable to budge below that threshold this year, according to "The Red Tape Report," authored by the group Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America.

Consequently, hundreds of thousands of veterans who were permanently disabled or made ill by their military service are waiting months for their compensation checks to arrive to help pay bills and, in some cases, to buy food. Some of those veterans are physically unable to hold jobs. "
Source: VA backlog again gnarled in red tape, report claims - U.S. News
Better source: IAVA - The Battle to End the VA Backlog | Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America



Hypothetical question.
Person has lived aboard for many years. Person gets sick, cannot work. Does that person have to move off their boat? Must the person live to accommodate the generic stereotype imposed by people who have never walked a mile in their shoes? The sick person must limp, never laugh, or go sailing?

Sheesh

[a64pilot]

At least around here where I live it seems most disabled vets only served one tour, never saw any form of combat, it was at least 20 yrs ago, and now they have disabled Vet status, it's those that I have to wonder if they should be getting paid, and there are many more of them every day.
I bet that very little of the money paid for disabled vets is actually paid to Combat Wounded Veterans, but I have no idea how to find the amount and doubt seriously if it could be determined.
Ocean Girl, I and a few others have walked a mile in those shoes, several miles in fact.