Hostages Taken off Somalia - Page 3

**TaoJones** · 31-10-2009, 13:25

The common tactic in that area, speakeasy, is to hug the Yemeni coast. I don't know of any attacks from the north coast, but that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred.

I suspect it may be for the same reason that the police give for why burglars avoid houses in cul de sacs and prefer houses on street corners. The former pins them in, with only one exit. The latter gives them two avenues of escape.

The Somali pirates are going to be much harder to find in the vastness of the Indian Ocean than the relatively much smaller area at the mouth of the Red Sea.

TaoJones

Rhoel_Asia · 31-10-2009, 14:17

Several points here.

Pirates operating 800 nm off-shore is really serious ... this is the same as not being able to sail the Bahamas due to Nicaraguan pirates. If you have any knowledge of the Indian Ocean routes, you will appreciate this effectively means all east -> West routes to South Africa are now at pirate risk. Basically to go from Asia to South Africa, you have to go counter clockwise around the Indian Ocean. Islands such as Diego Garcia (the finest anchorage in the Indian Ocean) are out, a prohibited area due to the UK leasing the island to the US for intelligence purposes.

So Sri Lanka -> Maldives -> Seychelles is the most logical and practical. From then its either the inside (west) route past Madagascar or East to Vingt Cinq -> Reunion -> South Africa.

But at a 1000nm, even islands such as Vingt Cinq (1m200nm) and Maldives (1500nm) are in danger.

Today the random demand for the Chandlers was given, "We only need a little amount of $7m." Predictably the UK Government to;d the pirates to bog off with their "little amount" - the Foreign Office communique stated "[Her Majesty's Government] HMG's policy remains clear: We will not make substantive concessions to hostage takers, including the payment of ransoms." For $7 million, the UK could wipe out Somalia, a thought I'm sure must appeal to certain quarters.

Paul and Rachel Chandler are in for a protracted wait whilst the Somalis get real: Time is not on the side of the pirates: Britain has a very good track record of using its special forces to end hostage taking. The news is getting worse - the hijacked Sirius Star is a Saudi (read Muslim) owned vessel and the Somali Islamic militias are now in hot pursuit of the Harardhere based pirates responsible.

The problem is the more the insurance companies pay out, the better equipped and resourceful the pirates become. Worse it inspires other fishermen to abandon their nets and take up the more profitable practice of hijacking.

My belief is a military action is planned: Over the past few months, much intelligence has been done into the operational bases, clans involved and their strategic weaknesses. The multinational military force available has significantly increased and the Somalis seizure of the Saudi VLCC Sirius Star concentrated minds as the 2m barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia was heading to the US; And America does not wish to have its oil supply messed with.

Perhaps the greedy residents of Harardhere might like to consider their dusty home turf is identical to that David Stirling and his original SAS team grew up in, and more importantly still train in. The SBS, on the other hand, regularly practice night assaults on commercial ships, using night vision, parachute and small craft, backed up by a heap of exotic weaponry which makes the pirate standard issue AK47 a poor second.

The next few weeks will be interesting but I would not be surprised to learn military force has been exercised. This stupid game has to end and pirates getting deaded is probably the only message which will be listened to.

Rhoel

Eleven · 31-10-2009, 14:46

They are also people, struggling in a hard land.
Perhaps, since it would be so easy, we should solve the problems there.
Then move on to other countries where the greed of politicians force the population into crime.

CSY Man · 31-10-2009, 14:58

Quote:

They are also people, struggling in a hard land.

They ought to try growing food or practicing birth control instead of taking innocent hostages.

No mercy, hang 'em like in the old days....

JiffyLube · 31-10-2009, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eleven

They are also people, struggling in a hard land.
Perhaps, since it would be so easy, we should solve the problems there.
Then move on to other countries where the greed of politicians force the population into crime.

Based on Black Hawk Down during the Clinton administration, helping the common folks there get rid of the war lords is a hard way to solve the problem. Giving money and aid would just land in the hands of the war lords, just like the money from stolen shipping is now. Maybe the best way to deal with them is with world wide isolation, if you could get all other countries to go along with that.

c-kow · 31-10-2009, 14:53

If they were holding up ships with handguns I'd be more inclined to believe that Eleven, however when you're investing in assault rifles and grenade launchers you've passed the point where you're trying to feed your family. This is a profitable business now, made that way because of the relative hopelessness of fighting back, the eagerness of some to pay ransoms, and the lack of decisive military action. I hope especially the last changes in the near future.

I do find it interesting that we can't hold nations accountable for not maintaining a degree of control on their population to the point where it disrupts international commerce and recreation.

Jamel · 31-10-2009, 16:50

People are still determined to passage through the Red Sea and I can completely understand that. It's a fantastic scenic and cultural journey to get to the Med and delightful cruising awaits there.

To go in convoy is the best option but where to assemble? Somewhere such as Oman(Salalah) would be a good start point with Aden as a final regrouping before set off through the Straits. Obviously important to keep together so speed will be determined by the slowest vessel. What happens if someone has a motor failure, would the convoy wait and protect?

Eleven · 31-10-2009, 14:57

Well, in Good Queen Victoria's day a frigate would be sent.
If that didn't work a Squadron would be sent.
If that didn't work we'd send an army, occupy, put new rulers in place, and tax them into poverty.
Such is progress.

swagman · 04-11-2009, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eleven

Well, in Good Queen Victoria's day a frigate would be sent.
If that didn't work a Squadron would be sent.
If that didn't work we'd send an army, occupy, put new rulers in place, and tax them into poverty.
Such is progress.

One could be mistaken for thinking that is exactly what Mr Bush did to the UK a few years back.

But keeping our feet on the ground, it is a tricky situation as the Somalis do not have an effective government to even consider controlling either the Islamic extremists on the one side, or the warlord type pirates on the other.

I understood similar past hostages in Somalia have been well treated and only ever risked being hurt when 'rescue' operations are conducted using force - so despite it feeling very Rambo like and nice - methinks diplomatic chats elsewhere might get a better and safer result.

Like maybe seeing these guys bundled into some deal when the Chinese pay to get one of their ships and crews back and presented as a 'gift' to the west............

And then of course we can begin to use a coalition force to protect and escort convoys wishing to transit the coastline ........... who can blow away any pirates who venture out to take them on.

JOHN

SabreKai · 04-11-2009, 09:51

I say go with the Qship idea, but give them legal authourity to wipe the pirates out to a man. Half the problem with the response the west is presenting now is the legal mess. Canada has grabbed a few but had to release them sans weapons because the legal situation is so screwed up. No one wants to be the one to say Enough, and start blowing them and their boats out of the water. I'm sure that if we started doing that, then after a while the Somalis would get the message. Attack a ship or yacht and vanish. Bad business. Maybe we should go back to smuggling quat.

As for myself, I would do my best to avoid the area. Honestly, I can't think of a reason to go there in the first place. I don't think I'll be able to see all the places I want to see before I get too old or sick to do this anymore. There are lots of places to see that don't involve tall skinny quat chewing idiots stuffing AK-47s up your nose and wrecking everything you've worked a life time for just so they can get some money the easy way.

If by chance I did run across them, well then, its time for the berserker side of my personality to come out. They will most likely win, but my honor guard in hell will be sizeable.

Sabre

GordMay · 04-11-2009, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SabreKai

I say go with the Qship idea, but give them legal authourity to wipe the pirates out to a man. Half the problem with the response the west is presenting now is the legal mess. Canada has grabbed a few but had to release them sans weapons because the legal situation is so screwed up. No one wants to be the one to say Enough, and start blowing them and their boats out of the water. I'm sure that if we started doing that ...

If we started doing that ... we'd be pirates - just bigger, badder punks than they.

A sort of Q-Ship, an attack on which, scenario should solve the problem of probable cause, likely constituting prima facie evidence of piracy.

**David M** · 31-10-2009, 16:26

Hardship is never a justification for crime. There are plenty of legitimate ways of improving ones living situation. Japan and many other nations have little or no natural resources, yet they do not resort to piracy.

**David M** · 31-10-2009, 17:03

A convoy could be more than one well armed vessel and probably should be. Any vessel who can not keep up could be taken into tow.

rebel heart · 31-10-2009, 17:51

I guess it's hug the Yemeni coast. Maybe the US Navy / NATO / UN could get a once-every-two-weeks thing going on where they escort boats from one boat to another, doing 3 knots. If you outrun the escort, your fault. Just having a warship within visual distance would be mighty helpful.

MarkJ · 31-10-2009, 18:49

If anyone is going through in the next 6 months I have a good bit of information that is not going on public sites but I am happy to share if someone PM's me.

We are also setting up a little email group of some of us that are going.

Mark

31-10-2009, 13:25	#1
TaoJones Moderator Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles sobre El Río Porciuncula, Alta California Posts: 3,570	The common tactic in that area, speakeasy, is to hug the Yemeni coast. I don't know of any attacks from the north coast, but that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. I suspect it may be for the same reason that the police give for why burglars avoid houses in cul de sacs and prefer houses on street corners. The former pins them in, with only one exit. The latter gives them two avenues of escape. The Somali pirates are going to be much harder to find in the vastness of the Indian Ocean than the relatively much smaller area at the mouth of the Red Sea. TaoJones __________________ "Your vision becomes clear only when you look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks within, awakens." Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)

31-10-2009, 14:46	#3
Eleven Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Southampton UK Boat: Poppy, a 31' Prout Cat. Posts: 386	They are also people, struggling in a hard land. Perhaps, since it would be so easy, we should solve the problems there. Then move on to other countries where the greed of politicians force the population into crime. __________________ Proud Prout 31 Sailor, Southampton UK.

31-10-2009, 14:57	#8
Eleven Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Southampton UK Boat: Poppy, a 31' Prout Cat. Posts: 386	Well, in Good Queen Victoria's day a frigate would be sent. If that didn't work a Squadron would be sent. If that didn't work we'd send an army, occupy, put new rulers in place, and tax them into poverty. Such is progress. __________________ Proud Prout 31 Sailor, Southampton UK.

04-11-2009, 09:51	#10
SabreKai Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada on Lake Ontario Boat: Roberts Offshore 38 Posts: 217	I say go with the Qship idea, but give them legal authourity to wipe the pirates out to a man. Half the problem with the response the west is presenting now is the legal mess. Canada has grabbed a few but had to release them sans weapons because the legal situation is so screwed up. No one wants to be the one to say Enough, and start blowing them and their boats out of the water. I'm sure that if we started doing that, then after a while the Somalis would get the message. Attack a ship or yacht and vanish. Bad business. Maybe we should go back to smuggling quat. As for myself, I would do my best to avoid the area. Honestly, I can't think of a reason to go there in the first place. I don't think I'll be able to see all the places I want to see before I get too old or sick to do this anymore. There are lots of places to see that don't involve tall skinny quat chewing idiots stuffing AK-47s up your nose and wrecking everything you've worked a life time for just so they can get some money the easy way. If by chance I did run across them, well then, its time for the berserker side of my personality to come out. They will most likely win, but my honor guard in hell will be sizeable. Sabre __________________ SabreKai SV Sabre Dance, Roberts Offshore 38 SV Espina, Mason 31

31-10-2009, 16:26	#12
David M Moderator Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Bay Boat: research vessel Posts: 4,660	Hardship is never a justification for crime. There are plenty of legitimate ways of improving ones living situation. Japan and many other nations have little or no natural resources, yet they do not resort to piracy. __________________ David Where land ends life begins.

31-10-2009, 14:17	#2
Rhoel_Asia Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Phnom Penh, Cambodia Boat: boatless at the moment :-(, Previous Itchen Ferry 25. Posts: 69	Several points here. Pirates operating 800 nm off-shore is really serious ... this is the same as not being able to sail the Bahamas due to Nicaraguan pirates. If you have any knowledge of the Indian Ocean routes, you will appreciate this effectively means all east -> West routes to South Africa are now at pirate risk. Basically to go from Asia to South Africa, you have to go counter clockwise around the Indian Ocean. Islands such as Diego Garcia (the finest anchorage in the Indian Ocean) are out, a prohibited area due to the UK leasing the island to the US for intelligence purposes. So Sri Lanka -> Maldives -> Seychelles is the most logical and practical. From then its either the inside (west) route past Madagascar or East to Vingt Cinq -> Reunion -> South Africa. But at a 1000nm, even islands such as Vingt Cinq (1m200nm) and Maldives (1500nm) are in danger. Today the random demand for the Chandlers was given, "We only need a little amount of $7m." Predictably the UK Government to;d the pirates to bog off with their "little amount" - the Foreign Office communique stated "[Her Majesty's Government] HMG's policy remains clear: We will not make substantive concessions to hostage takers, including the payment of ransoms." For $7 million, the UK could wipe out Somalia, a thought I'm sure must appeal to certain quarters. Paul and Rachel Chandler are in for a protracted wait whilst the Somalis get real: Time is not on the side of the pirates: Britain has a very good track record of using its special forces to end hostage taking. The news is getting worse - the hijacked Sirius Star is a Saudi (read Muslim) owned vessel and the Somali Islamic militias are now in hot pursuit of the Harardhere based pirates responsible. The problem is the more the insurance companies pay out, the better equipped and resourceful the pirates become. Worse it inspires other fishermen to abandon their nets and take up the more profitable practice of hijacking. My belief is a military action is planned: Over the past few months, much intelligence has been done into the operational bases, clans involved and their strategic weaknesses. The multinational military force available has significantly increased and the Somalis seizure of the Saudi VLCC Sirius Star concentrated minds as the 2m barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia was heading to the US; And America does not wish to have its oil supply messed with. Perhaps the greedy residents of Harardhere might like to consider their dusty home turf is identical to that David Stirling and his original SAS team grew up in, and more importantly still train in. The SBS, on the other hand, regularly practice night assaults on commercial ships, using night vision, parachute and small craft, backed up by a heap of exotic weaponry which makes the pirate standard issue AK47 a poor second. The next few weeks will be interesting but I would not be surprised to learn military force has been exercised. This stupid game has to end and pirates getting deaded is probably the only message which will be listened to. Rhoel

31-10-2009, 14:53	#6
c-kow Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 47	If they were holding up ships with handguns I'd be more inclined to believe that Eleven, however when you're investing in assault rifles and grenade launchers you've passed the point where you're trying to feed your family. This is a profitable business now, made that way because of the relative hopelessness of fighting back, the eagerness of some to pay ransoms, and the lack of decisive military action. I hope especially the last changes in the near future. I do find it interesting that we can't hold nations accountable for not maintaining a degree of control on their population to the point where it disrupts international commerce and recreation.

31-10-2009, 16:50	#7
Jamel Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Beautiful South West Western Australia Boat: Swanson 32 sloop JAMEL Posts: 9	People are still determined to passage through the Red Sea and I can completely understand that. It's a fantastic scenic and cultural journey to get to the Med and delightful cruising awaits there. To go in convoy is the best option but where to assemble? Somewhere such as Oman(Salalah) would be a good start point with Aden as a final regrouping before set off through the Straits. Obviously important to keep together so speed will be determined by the slowest vessel. What happens if someone has a motor failure, would the convoy wait and protect?

31-10-2009, 17:03	#13
David M Moderator Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Bay Boat: research vessel Posts: 4,660	A convoy could be more than one well armed vessel and probably should be. Any vessel who can not keep up could be taken into tow. __________________ David Where land ends life begins.

31-10-2009, 17:51	#14
rebel heart Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: San Diego Boat: Hans Christian 36 Posts: 947	I guess it's hug the Yemeni coast. Maybe the US Navy / NATO / UN could get a once-every-two-weeks thing going on where they escort boats from one boat to another, doing 3 knots. If you outrun the escort, your fault. Just having a warship within visual distance would be mighty helpful. __________________ Keep the water on the outside, you on the inside, and the stick in the air. http://rebelheart.squarespace.com

31-10-2009, 18:49	#15
MarkJ Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Asia - on Sea Life Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life" Posts: 3,025	If anyone is going through in the next 6 months I have a good bit of information that is not going on public sites but I am happy to share if someone PM's me. We are also setting up a little email group of some of us that are going. Mark __________________ Malaysia... near Singapore If you are going up G.O.A 2010 PM me. OurLifeAtSea.com

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