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Old 26-10-2016, 18:31   #106
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

11 pages in and no one has mentioned Tragedy of the Commons? Must not be a freshman economics course But the waterways are a public good, and as such they demand regulation under most economic structures.
I was in the camp of live and let live until I cruised the Gulf coast of Florida and the keys. Boats that never move are a huge problem for cruisers (isn't that word in the name of this site)? In some anchorages with town docks, the anchorage is so full of non-movers that cruisers can't even find a spot. So they bypass the town, and the town misses out on revenue from the cruisers. Key west and boot key both suffer from this, and I met a number of cruisers who bypass both places due to either the quality of the company or the hustle for space (not to mention the increased risk from breaking away, uninsured boats). I think Washington's solution, as described by Newhaul, an excellent remedy. Don't monopolize a public good, and the public probably won't mind as much.

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Old 26-10-2016, 18:50   #107
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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But other than a private parkway or a public road, one should be free to park it and live in it.

I mean live in it, not throw their garbage everywhere and **** in the roadside bush.

We should be free to stop and live where we please, as long as we do not bother others or create danger to someone.

If we are not, there is no freedom left.

b.
Well great, lets use your example. What are you going to do with your garbage? What are you going to do when you need a bathroom? I can tell you what you are going to do, use the bathroom at a store or gas station. And use their dumpster. What are you going to do when you get cold? Use someone else's heat. Leach city. 360 had it right, if you want to do something like this, go to the wilderness and do it like a real man, you surely will not be doing it in a damn car.
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Old 26-10-2016, 18:54   #108
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

About the only thing I liked about this thread is "sailor chic's" new pict.
and if I am ever in California I would help you clean , scrape and paint your boat.
I want to sail, I don't care where, or who gives a flying ___ when I do it.
One thing I'm pretty certain about this issue isn't going to be solved here. So remember to be civil.
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Old 26-10-2016, 19:35   #109
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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No, As I said, and I say what I mean, "this thread" but I do notice in many different threads you do love to play the victim. As far as sweet talk, ha ha, not for you sailor"chic"
Really. a victim. Being poor is not being a victim. Nether is being rich. Just a state of being. But hey if that works for ya, go with it. Myself I had a delightful time motoring upriver today with sunshine and blue skys. Lovely lovely day. Ya'll might try mess'n around in boats more. It will be good for ya.

Ya'll be good. I is out of this thread.
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Old 26-10-2016, 21:39   #110
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

This sounds like no one ever owned a car. In most states (but oddly not Florida) you have to take the car in every year and get an annual safety inspection. No inspection? Can't pass it? Then there's no registration, no insurance, and you either keep the car off "the commons" or the state will gladly take it away and send you a bill. We do this because some people just ignore basic safety. They don't care about bald tires, or bad brakes, or burned out lights. And that endangers everyone else around them "on the Commons". Does it suck to be broke and not able to afford new tires when you need them? You betcha. But if you can't afford the tires and brakes and oh, yeah, insurance too? The issue is public safety and that's where it begins and ends. Doing something about the poor, the homeless, the mentally ill, that's a whole other topic and "I can't afford to keep my boat afloat" shouldn't be confused with it.
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Old 26-10-2016, 21:56   #111
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
I lived in a van down by the river for 3 years, does that make me derelict?
No...of course not...what you did was more of a vagrant.

va·grant
ˈvāɡrənt/
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noun: vagrant; plural noun: vagrants
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a person without a settled home or regular work who wanders from place to place and lives by begging.
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Old 27-10-2016, 00:19   #112
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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Got me!

;-)

I used to have that vision of America from Hollywood movies: some big towns, some small towns and plenty of land in between. Now after some years of reading thru many posts at this forum I understood that my vision was just that.

A driver can get shot by the policeman for leaving their car and a sailor is not welcome to anchor in a roadstead because the view from the rich man's window gets marred?

So let's stop all this freedom nonsense because apparently in some places of this world there is none left.

Meanwhile Wells Fargo manager grabs a bag full of taxpayer's money and goes on vacation in their maxiyacht. These are free to anchor as they please. They do not mar any view. They are the view.

People who want to live where they want as they want should be free to do as they please. Trouble makers, old derelict boats and fraudulent bankers should be removed.

Cost to the taxpayers? Yes. Just spend the money wisely so that we can live in freedom and anchor where the chart reads 6m sand and thick mud.

Cheers,
b.
+1000 A voice of sanity and wisdom in this thread. ))
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Old 27-10-2016, 00:23   #113
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
Originally Posted by PhiSig1071
And leaving their mess behind to be cleaned up on the taxpayers dime.

Interesting. Makes me think of the majority of non sailors who think rescuing sailors in the open ocean on well founded boats is the height of stupidity and even more offended when it is done on the tax payers dime.
Life has a funny way of getting even with karma and some such. Just like Marie Antoinette got her comeuppance hope these anti-"bums" folks get theirs at some point of their lives. And bet you they'll be the first ones clamoring for the gov't to bail them out. Just like the bankers. The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Old 27-10-2016, 00:30   #114
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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This sounds like no one ever owned a car. In most states (but oddly not Florida) you have to take the car in every year and get an annual safety inspection. No inspection? Can't pass it? Then there's no registration, no insurance, and you either keep the car off "the commons" or the state will gladly take it away and send you a bill. We do this because some people just ignore basic safety. They don't care about bald tires, or bad brakes, or burned out lights. And that endangers everyone else around them "on the Commons". Does it suck to be broke and not able to afford new tires when you need them? You betcha. But if you can't afford the tires and brakes and oh, yeah, insurance too? The issue is public safety and that's where it begins and ends. Doing something about the poor, the homeless, the mentally ill, that's a whole other topic and "I can't afford to keep my boat afloat" shouldn't be confused with it.
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither". Ben Franklin.

And that's pretty much sums up this debate.
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Old 27-10-2016, 01:31   #115
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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"Unwilling to spend an hour or so keeping the boat clean" sounds like the rantings of the ignorant. Hopefully no Marine Officers are investigating boats because they are dirty. They generally are busy with expired registration stickers, visibly damaged, listing, drifting or grounded boats which is as it should be.
I'm not talking about the legality but having seen the area first hand, there may be some boats that are not derelict but when you make no effort to even make it look like it's a viable boat, what do you expect?

I learned a long time ago, once you give people a reason to start asking questions, it usually leads to more questions (field unrelated to this). Far easier to address the issue before the first question but my experience is these are more often than not the type who don't play well with others and rather than replace the broken $10 bilge pump or get the debris they will never use off the deck, they rant and rave. Human nature being what it is, the officer then starts asking questions and it goes downhill from there.
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Old 27-10-2016, 01:35   #116
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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Let's be honest and call this issue for what it really is - gentrification in progress. For decades Lower Keys were "end of the line" for many on the lower social-economic scale precisely because they were far away from the "civilized society" and "the law" and no one paid much attention to their funky haggard residents. But as that funkiness became a tourist magnet and locals started cashing in by selling old dilapidated houses to the developers and wealthy winter residents the real funkiness started to get on those newcomers' nerves. Sure they would still like some funkiness but in a controlled, manageable way such as what was done to Haight-Ashbury or Provincetown - franchised corporate funkiness. But definitely they do not want the real thing now that they sunked some serious $$ into their mansions and other development projects. So one way or another under whatever pretext those too poor or too free to fit into the newcomers' image of a respected citizen-neighbor will be made unwelcome and eventually shoved off someplace else. Not the first time this happened and I'm sure not the last time.
How old are you? It's been decades that the keys have been an expensive area. The "funky" key west vibe is a tourist marketing scheme as much as anything else.
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Old 27-10-2016, 01:52   #117
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

This thread should be set to "Alice's Restaurant " Regards, Richard.
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Old 27-10-2016, 02:05   #118
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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How old are you? It's been decades that the keys have been an expensive area. The "funky" key west vibe is a tourist marketing scheme as much as anything else.
I first visited KW about 25 years ago precisely because it was cheap and funky. Now I visit every few years during the Fest. Wish I'd known about it in the 90s. And may be 2-3 times a year more when crewing on friends' boats either around Florida or on FL-New England deliveries with a friend who is a snowbird anchoring liveaboard in KW from Nov to April. So I am quite familiar with the local issues.

But IMO the discussion here lumps together 3 or 4 types of "derelicts". One type are the truly abandoned vessels which are just bobbing there waiting to either sink or cause damage to someone else's property. I don't think there is any argument among us as to what to do with those - haul them away to a land fill, sink them for reef making, burn them or wherever. There may be an argument who should pay for this but let's leave that argument for another time.

The second category are liveaboards who also commit various crimes against other persons or other persons' property. I do not think we are arguing to allow those people to stay put and certainly law enforcement should take appropriate steps to address these crimes and the perpetrators. But that is not "an anchoring issue" but a law enforcement one just as a criminal who happens to be driving RV is not an "RV issue".

Third category are liveaboards who are not visually pleasant to many (most?) but do not commit any crimes against persons or property although from time to time may be in technical violation of certain administrative rules and regs, some of which rules are being specifically designed to pressure those people out of the anchorages. These people and their situations I believe are and should be a part of CF discussion.

Fourth category would also be liveaboards with unappealing looking boats who do not commit any crimes and who do not receive any violation stickers, etc. And their only "crime" is that they do not look or act as some here think a proper boat and its owner should look and act.

Some here mix all four categories into one heap and argue against all four by producing examples from the first and second category. Others argue for a hands off attitude toward all four by giving examples from the fourth category. The truth lies somewhere in between. Certainly 1 and 2 should be swiftly dealt with by LEOs and other applicable local authorities. #3 - it depends and common sense should prevail on a case by case basis. And #4 definitely should be left alone and not bothered AT ALL as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. And unlike a house owner, who is stuck with a junkyard neighbor next door and therefore this presumably mitigates the harshness and unfreedom of some of the zoning laws, a boat owner who is offended by the 60s hippie's boat and that boat owner's personal looks can (and should) simply move on and should not have a right to subject the "offending" party to move.
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Old 27-10-2016, 05:11   #119
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

Whee.... Glad I have my popcorn close to hand...

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Some here mix all four categories into one heap and argue against all four by producing examples from the first and second category. Others argue for a hands off attitude toward all four by giving examples from the fourth category. The truth lies somewhere in between.
Thanks Cap' Exactly the point I was trying to make in my earlier posts.

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How old are you? It's been decades that the keys have been an expensive area. The "funky" key west vibe is a tourist marketing scheme as much as anything else.
Maybe so, but life here on "The Edge of America" is certainly different for those of us who actually live here... I love the book Night Shift In Paradise (written by Phil Randolf, part time author and full time habitué of the Brass Monkey) with it's dedication that reads; "For the barkeeps, waitresses, maids, cooks, cabbies, dishwashers and all the others whose lives remain invisible to those viewing Paradise from the outside-in".

We have met the riff-raff, and they is us...

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Originally Posted by PhiSig View Post
It does kind of amuse me that a lot of people who have never even seen boot key harbor are chiming in.
Agree
Quote:
Are there issues with the application certain laws being unfair to boaters in certain instances? Absolutely. Is this one of them? No. (Hell, we had someone chime in who lives in BKH and say that he knows both of the people mentioned, and "no one is sad to see them go"!)
As author of above cited quote.. again I must agree.
Quote:
If more derelict vessels were taken off the water maybe a lot of the unfair laws (like the anchoring restrictions in FL) wouldn't be put in place!
With this, I must respectfully disagree... "Derelict Boats" while a problem here as everywhere, has been used in the FL legislature as a red herring to pass laws in the Miami and Ft Lauderdale area that eliminate ANY vessel from anchoring over night. Be careful... they may be coming for your mega buck cat next.

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Originally Posted by PhiSig View Post
That's the problem, everyone goes off on a tangent. South Carolina this, California that. These are two boats (at least!) and two people who the liveaboards/anchorouts are "not sad to see them go". In this instance the FWC did their job well, and in doing so took out "two bad apples" so they don't "spoil the bunch" and cause an increase in the anchoring laws that are actually bullshit and are actually infringing on the rights of law-abiding boaters in the state.
Thanks... My point exactly

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Originally Posted by brownoarsman View Post
11 pages in and no one has mentioned Tragedy of the Commons? Must not be a freshman economics course But the waterways are a public good, and as such they demand regulation under most economic structures.
I was in the camp of live and let live until I cruised the Gulf coast of Florida and the keys. Boats that never move are a huge problem for cruisers (isn't that word in the name of this site)? In some anchorages with town docks, the anchorage is so full of non-movers that cruisers can't even find a spot. So they bypass the town, and the town misses out on revenue from the cruisers. Key west and boot key both suffer from this, and I met a number of cruisers who bypass both places due to either the quality of the company or the hustle for space (not to mention the increased risk from breaking away, uninsured boats). I think Washington's solution, as described by Newhaul, an excellent remedy. Don't monopolize a public good, and the public probably won't mind as much.
Kind of reminds me of the guy who only goes to church on Easter and Christmas... Upon finding no room to sit on Easter Sunday he commented "Sheesh... You'd think these folks who come here every week would stay home and leave room for the rest of us"


Couple more examples of why I find Boot Key such a nice place to live and what a great job the City Ports Authority and local LEOs trying to maintain an even handed approach..

Yesterday it was blowing 25-30 steady here in the harbor. One of the marina staff noticed a boat in the nearby anchorage (not the mooring balls) possibly dragging the hook. 1/2 hour later, local Monroe County Marine Patrol officer showed up on the dinghy docks with the Port Master and both checked it out from the docks. Not sure of the ensuing action, but don't expect to see a sticker on the offending vessel. More likely a possible visit and a reminder to keep up on their ground tackle. Of course this depends on the results of the initial "attitude check".

As a City Marina mooring ball customer, the poop boat comes by once a week and pumps out the Solitaire... Couple of weeks ago the Marina Manager stopped me in the parking lot and asked if my head was working ok. Told him sure, and asked why he asked. He says,"Charles noticed he is only pumping out a gallon or so a week, and I wondered if you were having problems." I reminded him I am a single guy, am ashore every day, and only use the onboard head for recycling rum and the occasional fecal emergency if I have the choice. Especially since I have such nice facilities ashore that someone else is responsible for maintaining. End of discussion except for the question "Does that mean we can schedule you for every other week?".

And now... Back to our regularly scheduled programing.
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Old 27-10-2016, 05:45   #120
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Re: FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

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Kind of reminds me of the guy who only goes to church on Easter and Christmas... Upon finding no room to sit on Easter Sunday he commented "Sheesh... You'd think these folks who come here every week would stay home and leave room for the rest of us"
:
In this day and age, I have never met anyone who complains about there being too many people in a church, quite the opposite, actually!

Nonetheless, I think your analogy flawed. Aside from nonprofit tax breaks, churches are largely privately financed, and most have at least the subtext of a mission to evangelize.

The waterways are very different. They are a public good which we all should have the right to enjoy. Someone claiming a piece of bottom long term prevents others from enjoying it. And if you don't think there's an ownership mentality, I would be happy to direct you to be story of at least one cruiser I met shortly after his boat was set adrift because he anchored in the 'local' part of key West. Same problem I have with localism in surfing. The country isn't in the pioneer days anymore. If you're a boater who would like to go west and claim your homestead, I'd suggest the Pacific garbage patch, few will bother you (not directed at you, but at the general notion that it is a first come first served right to a lifelong spot at a particular point in the water).


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