FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

.............. Since you seem to have divine know of how to get this boat moved please let me know how and I'll pass it along.

Money buys just about anything.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Sailorchick, help me out here. Who established the "rules" you speak of?

I believe it is the marinas that make the "rules". It is their prerogative.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I believe it is the marinas that make the "rules". It is their prerogative.

Correct! It's their (sizeable) investment, and their (sizeable) risk. They make the rules. You either live by them or move.

The other choice (if you have the shekels), but the marina and make your own rules.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

Yes, but the derelict boats in BKH aren't just "anchored out". These aren't people getting kicked out of slips or off moorings balls. These are floating piles of garbage that are usually unsuitable for habitation. Having lived in the Keys, and having many friends who still do, it is possible to live cheaply (and "free!!!!" as so many people lament) while abiding by the laws. I don't know what privately owned marina rules in California have to do with laws in Florida.



$600k for waterfront house on BKH? 2/1 condos are $300k with no dockage! You might be able to find something on a canal for that much.

Check Zillow my friend. I said canal. I didn't say Boot Key Harbor. All that is selling in the Keys right now are Canal frontage homes, and Condo's, in the 500-600K range, and that buys you a home with a decent dock. If you want something that fronts Sisters Creek, you had best have a VERY LARGE bankroll, like in the millions, and that leave me way back in the dust.

I've spent a lot of time looking.

[capt-couillon]

Meanwhile.... back at the ranch.

Exciting evening last night. Newly arrived motor yacht (35'-38' ? ) broke loose from the mooring (Whip failure, not mooring failure) last evening in 30-35 breeze with gusts to 40. Drifted down on several boats in the mooring field. Within 5 minutes there were 4 or 5 dinks in the area offering assistance and fendering boats. Within 10 minutes 2 City Marina vessels were on scene and secured the vessel while engines were started and eventually she ended up tied up alongside the water dock. No serious damage with the exception of the adrift vessels dink which got smushed. (Expensive fender)

Derelict vessel? Think not...

Point is, we all look out for each other here, (for the most part) rich or poor, big or small. Like I said it's a small town and we know who is who.
Different yes, but we like it. If you don't, well it's your problem. Deal with it elsewhere anyway you want.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Correct! It's their (sizeable) investment, and their (sizeable) risk. They make the rules. You either live by them or move.

The other choice (if you have the shekels), but the marina and make your own rules.

My comments were more to indicate that some folks who were well with the rules before, now through no fault of their own are outside the rules. If you want to live aboard in a 29 foot sailboat in the bay area, marina picking are going to be hard to come by.

No one expects to be down and out in BKH or Richardson Bay. Yet it happens. I know one 68 year old woman living on the hook, doing boat detailing to make ends meet. She use to co-own a restaurant till her partner died. Now she's stuck with not a whole lotta options and no where to go. There but for the grace of god go I.

LOL, if the down and outs had shekels, there would not be down and out.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Check Zillow my friend. I said canal. I didn't say Boot Key Harbor. All that is selling in the Keys right now are Canal frontage homes, and Condo's, in the 500-600K range, and that buys you a home with a decent dock. If you want something that fronts Sisters Creek, you had best have a VERY LARGE bankroll, like in the millions, and that leave me way back in the dust.

I've spent a lot of time looking.

So you did, I missed that, and I apologize. In my experience, most of the residential canals don't have derelict boats on them, they're mainly in/near the channels leading into and out of BKH. The area between Pancho's/Burdines and the start of the mooring field was always the worst.

The residential access canals are usually too narrow for someone to get away with leaving an unregistered piece of garbage floating in them. Too many eyes see them coming and going and are happy to report them. Also, the channels are so narrow that anything not tied to the side or end is almost always going to be a navigation hazard, if not completely block the canal, which will garner a response right quick.

FWIW, my SIL is a realtor (in Jacksonville) and she hates Zillow with a passion. (She refers to it as "the z-word"). She seems to think it gives unrealistic expectations to customers. (Although, she does say that for both buyers and sellers, so I'm not sure how that's possible?)

Either way, I am jealous you're headed back, and I'm still stuck in the desert! Have a cold beer and a green chili cheeseburger at Burdines for me.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

So you did, I missed that, and I apologize. In my experience, most of the residential canals don't have derelict boats on them, they're mainly in/near the channels leading into and out of BKH. The area between Pancho's/Burdines and the start of the mooring field was always the worst.

The residential access canals are usually too narrow for someone to get away with leaving an unregistered piece of garbage floating in them. Too many eyes see them coming and going and are happy to report them. Also, the channels are so narrow that anything not tied to the side or end is almost always going to be a navigation hazard, if not completely block the canal, which will garner a response right quick.

FWIW, my SIL is a realtor (in Jacksonville) and she hates Zillow with a passion. (She refers to it as "the z-word"). She seems to think it gives unrealistic expectations to customers. (Although, she does say that for both buyers and sellers, so I'm not sure how that's possible?)

Either way, I am jealous you're headed back, and I'm still stuck in the desert! Have a cold beer and a green chili cheeseburger at Burdines for me.

Gotcha As far as Zillow, real estate people DO hate it because of the values they put on the properties. But when you talk to a "old-salt" real estate agent that is showing you homes and you complain about the place being a dump and expensive they have a term for that: FANTASY PRICING

And those are the homes that sit and sit in the hundreds of days.

It goes like this; Someone builds or buys a home in Marathon, Islamorada, Key Large or Plantation (etc) as a second home. They use it for no more than 2 weeks a year (they say ) so it qualifies for Rental Home status tax wise. They rent it out a few times during the year, and get to write off depreciation, taxes, maintenance, etc.

Home doesn't sell, still get the write-off against their ordinary income. They know the home is "fantasy priced," but the write-off is worth it to them!

That's a loophole than needs to be fixed. You see it all the time on commercial property that remains vacant forever. Its the gift that keeps on giving

There's one joint you can but that's all set up. Its only 12 Mil with a very large deep water dock (I think its 200'), and also has a second dock for something a tad smaller, maybe 50 or 60 feet - that empties into Sisters Creek at the mouth with Hawks Channel just a spit distance. Ocean view, 12 bedrooms, and all such necessary amenities. All ready to move in. All one would need to do is knock off a Armored Car (not one on those puny ones mind you, it needs to be a stout one). Maybe you could find Patty Hurst - I think she may have some experience in this venue.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

Either way, I am jealous you're headed back, and I'm still stuck in the desert! Have a cold beer and a green chili cheeseburger at Burdines for me.

I hear you! Spent my misspent youth in the Middle and Upper Keys running from the FGFWC and Florida Marine Patrol while I was cutting class at the School of Underwater Basket-weaving. Used to poach lobsters and stone crabs. Of course that was in the late 60's. The Keys were much different then But, I want to spend what time I have left there as I have never fallen out of love with the Keys.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I'm not in Marathon, but at a marina in central Florida. There is an old wooden Chris Craft 40 foot power boat on our dock that has sunk 3 times in three weeks. It has a tarp around it to slow the water intrusion but it still sinks on a regular basis. No towing company will tow it. They're afraid it will sink while being towed. There are a couple of travel lifts within a couple of miles but they refuse to lift it for fear it will crumble. I also heard he tried to get a crane and barge to come get it, but they too refused to have anything to do with it. So there it sits sinking once or twice a week. How is this owner to dispose of this boat? This boat clearly meets all of the criteria for being derelict yet there is no way for the owner to dispose of it. The Marina wants him out of here so I suppose the only solution is to get someone to tow it out and let it sink. Of course if the authorities ever find out who towed it they will probably be arrested along with the owner. I for one have a problem with putting people in jail for not complying with a law when there is no means of doing so.

Who's refusing and in what context?

My bet is the people who won't touch it are not being hired by the owner with indemnity provided by the owner.

If the marina moves it and it sinks or is crushed by the travel lift, they will be responsible for any damage which on an old wooden boat can be incredibly expensive to fix.

If the owner paid the salvage company and signed a waiver that there is a good chance of damage and the salvage company won't be held responsible, I'm betting they take the job.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

As a former RV owner, it is real common in the RV world for a park to set age limits on RV's, although if yours is exceptionally well kept, they may look the other way.
Having an old boat myself, I hope the Marina's don't go that way, cause I do want to be able to stay in one if needed.

Actually it's very comparable and since we split time in with our RV, we've found it doesn't have to be "exceptionally well kept".

Ours is closing in on 20yrs old and not pristine but clean with no obvious flaws. We regularly stay in parks with the 10yr limit and no one questions it.

Common knowledge is this is just a way for parks to address derelict RV's from being pulled in. If the park says it's not in good enough condition, they are grilled for being elitist.

The solution: On checking in if it looks reasonably maintained, they forget to ask the age. If it's "cousin eddies" look alike, they ask the age and then tell them sorry, they don't accept older than 10yrs old.

[SURV69]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Who's refusing and in what context?

My bet is the people who won't touch it are not being hired by the owner with indemnity provided by the owner.

If the marina moves it and it sinks or is crushed by the travel lift, they will be responsible for any damage which on an old wooden boat can be incredibly expensive to fix.

If the owner paid the salvage company and signed a waiver that there is a good chance of damage and the salvage company won't be held responsible, I'm betting they take the job.

Indemnity from what?
The boat's already trashed.

BUT, would indemnity(from the owner), protect the company moving the "boat", from third parties, such as the marina, the state of Florida or the federal government? The owner can't sign away everyone's rights and interest ... only his own ... which are miniscule.

I would think "possible", liability from this large group of third-party has to have a sobering effect on the salvage companies' interest in their bottom line.

So, the boat sits ... and sits(and sinks) ... and sits(and sinks) ...

The best thing to do is for a government agency to take over this operation, cause private businesses do not work for the protection of citizens, or the protection of waters ... they work for profit and are driven by profit.

You know, this problem(derelicts), is nothing compared to the biggest companies at the turn of the century making bookoo profits at the cost of lives(lack of safety), and the open contamination of the citizens waters and air.

These big money corporations killed millions of trees, forever made areas un-inhabitable, probably killed millions of people(or greatly shortened their lives), and habitually "bought" politicians to turn a blind-eye.

Our governments seem to have no problem cleaning these messes ... in fact a whole new level of governmental corruption makes a lot more money for "people of power".

This issue with derelicts, will eventually have to be addressed as a "small"(by comparison) environmental disaster, and in the future a self-sufficient fund will have to be employed to dispose of these boats from the "hey-day", of boat-building, back when thousands of boat companies made for boats for the masses.

Many fewer cruising-type boats are being built now and eventually the problems with derelicts will greatly diminish in scope ...

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

SNIP

FWIW, my SIL is a realtor (in Jacksonville)

SNIP

Ask you SIL about how hard it is to get insurance needed to get a loan to buy a condo/house in Marathon. I was looking at a 2/1 condo with dockage on a seawall (for an extra $US100/month) on a canal across the street from the golf course. Price was under $US200k but it had to be cash since no one would insure.

Also ask her about how many marinas in South Florida have been sold, torn down for the land, and a high rise condo was built, with a reduced amount of dockage

Have to repeat the bottom line is there is not enough supply for the demand for a place to keep boats. Result is the price to keep your boat goes up close to desirable areas.

I spent months anchoring in the Keys with no problems. But it is always West of Key West (and I don't mean Wisteria or Sunset). Plenty of places from Archer to Marquesas where there is a nice sand bottom with protection.

Problem is the boats in question could never get there.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Ask you SIL about how hard it is to get insurance needed to get a loan to buy a condo/house in Marathon. I was looking at a 2/1 condo with dockage on a seawall (for an extra $US100/month) on a canal across the street from the golf course. Price was under $US200k but it had to be cash since no one would insure.

Also ask her about how many marinas in South Florida have been sold, torn down for the land, and a high rise condo was built, with a reduced amount of dockage

Have to repeat the bottom line is there is not enough supply for the demand for a place to keep boats. Result is the price to keep your boat goes up close to desirable areas.

I spent months anchoring in the Keys with no problems. But it is always West of Key West (and I don't mean Wisteria or Sunset). Plenty of places from Archer to Marquesas where there is a nice sand bottom with protection.

Problem is the boats in question could never get there.

One for sale right now in Marathon, not a big one, 99% dry storage, and it can be had for the unbelievably low price of 7.5 Mil!

Oh, its been for sale for some time....

[CareKnot]

Hello All,

I would like to take a moment to beg your forgiveness, since it seems impossible to have an opinion in this thread, offer a solution or even to agree on the facts - without someone being offended. But if you choose to get offended, it's your choice. Far be it from me to deprive you of your druthers.

This thread is a real eye-opener. The proverbial 'they' say it takes all kinds. If you are looking for any kind in particular, it seems all are well represented herein. So I would like to take another moment to commend those participants in this thread that have advocated a more circumspect investigation of the real issues than the (paid) media is willing to share or the knee-jerk crowd is willing to acknowledge. My hat is off to those that endorse compassion and choose to err on the side of caution and common sense. You have my respect and gratitude.

Concerning the OP, the consensus opinion of the participating membership is that there is none. This thread is filled with views of even-handed wisdom, applicable common sense solutions, examples of humble teach-ability, "hang 'em high" rally cries and even memorable and winning witticisms; all of the above are certainly demonstrated. But without consensus - or even practical discussion - this thread would best serve as check list of who you might wish to avoid inviting to your next sundowner, lest some poor soul become offended.

Since I was a child, the world has been turned on it's head. What was once called good is now evil and vice versa. Up is now down; in is now out; free is anything but - in every sense of the word. Free is now very expensive and has no semblance of liberty left to be associated with it. So it is worth remembering the old adage; "Text, without a context, is but a pretext to a proof text." Nowhere is that more relevant than some of the 'proof texts' offered in the thread; in as much as their 'proof' is analogous to my aforementioned 'free'. It's not.

Here are my questions, concerns and a few responses to objections raise by various members. Let me start with the political elements of this discussion first, in that they tend to stray furthest from the facts. (Yes I'm being brave. This is my second glass of red.)

Since the issues addressed herein are based in the US, the great state of Florida, specific locals and cruising and live-aboard community (of which I was a long-time resident) the political (the activities associated with the governance) and civics (the rights and duties of citizenship) elements I respond to will be based within that context. What makes this a difficult area to understand and to find consensus, is the overlap of citizen's duties in their role of self-governance and the tenuous balance between constitutional limitations and natural tendency toward over-reach of governance as it applies to citizens rights, natural resources and capital concerns.

My view is simple. We the People are screwing We the People and we seem to like it.

1. Political Compass Headings - Liberal, Conservative, Authoritarian, Libertarian. Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass, https://www.politicalcompass.org/
   
2. Political Labels
   We have all been instructed in the inadequacies of political labels. Labels over-simplify; they obfuscate; they distort and deceive. Yet there is not a political discussion that takes place without the use of political labels applied in a manner designed to facilitate prevarication.
   
   Example: Socialism in mainstream US politics is repeatedly aligned with liberalism. However, a quick review of major socialist movements of the last century demonstrate a great number that evolved into of ultra-conservative authoritarian regimes exemplified by such notable movements as the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi Party).
   
   I doubt that very many 'liberals' in the US that would condone the death tolls that have been documented in socialist and communist states like those that occurred in the German holocaust or the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao Zedongmor or in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge (somewhere between 21 million to over 100 million non-combatants depending on who is doing the counting). Still, there we go with political labels that belie the reality of facts for the sake of political convenience and expediency.
   
   Repeatedly, polls have revealed those persons that are regularly labeled as radical left or right, actually hold pretty mainstream and 'middle of the road' political views. Both the left and right endorse some form of social programs for the needy and they both endorse capitalism as an economic system to varying degrees. So most political labeling that exceeds those bounds can safely be categorized as hyperbole (unicorn lovers included).
   
   Granted business people are slanted to favor business interests, social activists favor social 'justice', artsy people favor supporting the Arts, etc. In short, people like people like themselves, but people aren't really all that different. Big surprise right?
   
3. Political realities
   We have been dealing problems like these since the foundation of the Republic. Lots has changed over the years, but some things never change and human nature is one of those things.
   
   One could argue that our form of government is based upon the observations of some very wise people. They designed a government to limit the natural tendencies of man; tendencies toward corruption, excess, greed and abuse. So they designed a government to place limits on human nature, especially regarding how one human may treat another or one group of humans may treat another group of humans - as to manner they impinge or abrogate another human's rights under the color of law. This is something else that has changed in my lifetime and not all for the better.
   
   There is an academic paper entitled "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens" by Martin Gilens, professor of politics at Princeton University and Benjamin I. Page, the Gordon S. Fulcher professor of decision making at Northwestern University. The lay person might best internalize the salient points by reading any of several summaries such as, "The US is not a democracy but an oligarchy, study concludes"
   
   It came as no surprise that the uber-rich get what they want. The big surprise was that the median citizen, even when banded together in large like-minded groups, have a statistical probability of about zero when it comes to affecting public policy decisions. So feel free to argue politics all you want. Your opinions (unless you are among the uber-rich - not just the wealthy) are worth about as much as that Baby Ruth floating in the mooring field next to your yacht.
   
4. Localities and Jurisdictions
   To those people that criticize concerns and suggestions voiced by people that don't live in Monroe County or the particular Keys or Harbors mentioned in the OP, I would remind you that the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission is a State agency and the laws in question are State Laws. Further I would remind you that every cruising sailor has a deep and abiding concern regarding ANY state or local agency that assumes jurisdiction over what has traditionally been the purview of Federal agencies enforcing Maritime law according to international treaties.
   
   I find this type of colloquial we'uns vs you'uns small-mindedness damaging to the cruising community and akin to political labeling. It simply isn't accurate. We as cruising sailors are by definition and action, less bound to geographic abstractions and more citizens of the world. I can only hope that some of the more open-minded explorers among us rubs off a bit on you - for the sake of your betterment.
   
5. Enforcement
   Here we come round to the 'Leave the Poor Souls Alone' argument vs. the 'Hang 'em High!' and 'they get whatever they deserve', crowd.
   
   Show of hands! How many of you think that the answer to enforcement lay somewhere in between? Good. Glad to hear it. Because when it comes to enforcement, this country has literally gone over the top.
   
   Congratulation fellow citizens! USA #1! We now incarcerate more of our citizens than any Despotic Dictatorship, Communist Regime or Religious Oligarchy in the entire world! The 'Evil Axis' has got nothing on us!
   
   From Wikipedia: "Excludes federal prisoners. In October 2013, the incarceration rate of the United States of America was the highest in the world, at 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners." - United States incarceration rate
   
   
   
   The sad fact is that as a nation, we have incentive-ized incarceration. There are a seemingly an unending number of federal grants and programs to dole money out to law enforcement and regulatory agencies. We have also privatized incarceration where the very people that should be in the prisons now own and operate them - with very limited oversight I might add. Why? So 'Law & Order' candidates can justify founding and funding more agencies and more legislation with harsher penalties that require - wait for it...
   
   ...more taxes to fund them! It is a self-perpetuating revenue stream and the citizens are the sponsors.
   
6. Solutions
   So yeah, since you are the ones paying for it, let's start jailing boat owners that suffer mental disorders, addictions, devastating financial losses or damage to their boats and live in deplorable conditions. But wouldn't it be more fun to just string 'em up and bury them in their boat? We might be able to recover the costs by salvaging the lead, charging admission to their public executions and charge for rides on the bulldozers that push the dirt over their boats.
   
   Only the imagination limits our ability to solve this problem. There have been a number of good ones put forth already. If the state really wanted to solve the problem, they would indemnify the tow operators and sanction salvage operations. There would be no shortage of applicants.
   
   Dozers crushing them is good and I personally like bonfires and load music. How about an annual festival? Make the tourists pay for it. We could call it the FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon and Boat Crushing Festival. I vote we book the Stones.
   
   How about we tow the boats that still float overseas. For instance, there are sailors in Haiti that sail home-built wooden boats with trees for masts and tarps and burlap bags for sails. They will gladly take all we can deliver. Coincidentally, I don't think they have very many anchor exclusion zones in front of their high-rise condos. Just saying...

So this is what happens when I decide to read an entire thread during a sundowner with some pastries and a little Merlot. Ok, I'm cut off.