Freed Somali Pirates 'Probably Died' - Russian Source

[rebel heart]

You can't have it both ways. If you want a country that people respect, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard and not get into the trenches.

Russia is not respected on the world stage as a leader. It's a force but one that for the most part is entirely selfish and bullying. It has problems with Chinese taking over large tracts of its eastern lands, a puppet president stood up by an entrenched dictator (Putin), massive corruption, civil wars, and has to use military force on its neighbors. It's economy is wrecked and it's power projection is a fraction of what it once was.

If you want to sit there and cheer a country that acts like a bunch of savages, go right ahead. The US Navy sails and fights on the oceans of this planet with honor and integrity, and I for one am proud to have served on a warship that remembers its core values and that of its nation rather than exacting petty revenge like some school yard children with a score to settle.

[Xen]

oh wow I just ate an entire plate of my grandmothers lasagna.ugh i wish i hadn't done that.

[CSY Man]

If you want to sit there and cheer a country that acts like a bunch of savages, go right ahead

In general I am no fan of Russia, I grew up next door and nobody really had any love for them.

If the Russian's clean up the oceans using savage methods, that is perfectly fine in my book however.

Having served in the Merchant Marine and sailed all over the globe, I have a primitive kind of a hatred for folks who wants to kidnap me and my ship mates...Kind of creepy it is, but I cheer for every dead pirate I hear about.
I really think there should be a bounty of pirates, and I would happily contribute to the pot...Say $100.00 per head..Hoping the low price will get the volume up.

Also hoping the Russians will stick around and finish the job....

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by UWOA

You can disagree all you want, the language of international law, however, is quite specific when it comes to dealing with non-state actors who contravene international conventions: they are illegal combatants ...
You might want to take a course in international law so you are conversant on the topic ....

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
PART VII - HIGH SEAS

Here ➥ PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Defines “piracy” thus (Article 101):

“... Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).
...”


Common usage defines piracy (maritime) as:

- Maritime Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engage in acts of robbery, and/or criminal violence at sea.

- Piracy is a robbery committed at sea.

[UWOA]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

You can't have it both ways. If you want a country that people respect, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard and not get into the trenches.

Russia is not respected on the world stage as a leader. It's a force but one that for the most part is entirely selfish and bullying. It has problems with Chinese taking over large tracts of its eastern lands, a puppet president stood up by an entrenched dictator (Putin), massive corruption, civil wars, and has to use military force on its neighbors. It's economy is wrecked and it's power projection is a fraction of what it once was.

If you want to sit there and cheer a country that acts like a bunch of savages, go right ahead. The US Navy sails and fights on the oceans of this planet with honor and integrity, and I for one am proud to have served on a warship that remembers its core values and that of its nation rather than exacting petty revenge like some school yard children with a score to settle.

You miss the point! I am not trying to have it both ways. I was merely reflecting on the status of the Somali pirates as currently reflected in international law. That's different than trying to slant one's view with emotion and flag waving. I, too, have served in the US military, retiring at a field grade level after more than twenty-seven years of service. Commissioned by the President during the Viet Nam war, my honor and integrity has never been questioned, and I'm willing to compare my service record with anyone who's ever served.

That being said, if one looks dispassionately at the facts of the matter, arguments can be made for many solutions to the problem that we currently face with respect to piracy.

[UWOA]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
PART VII - HIGH SEAS

Here ➥ PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Defines “piracy” thus (Article 101):

“... Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).
...”


Common usage defines piracy (maritime) as:

- Maritime Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engage in acts of robbery, and/or criminal violence at sea.

- Piracy is a robbery committed at sea.

That fits the definition of "non-state actor" which is further defined in the Geneva convention and explained as an "illegal combatant" when the activities are performed by individuals who are not in uniform .....

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by UWOA

That fits the definition of "non-state actor" which is further defined in the Geneva convention and explained as an "illegal combatant" when the activities are performed by individuals who are not in uniform .....

I think not; and would ask for supporting documentation.

As I understand it:

An Illegal Combatant (also unlawful combatant) is, under some interpretations, a person who carries arms or engages in warlike acts (known as an Enemy combatant) in alleged violation of the laws of war. Under that interpretation, such a person is not necessarily considered a lawful combatant, and therefore is not necessarily accorded the rights of a prisoner of war (POW).

Under the Geneva Convention, and other treaties, the established approach is that a person is either a civilian tried under civilian law, or a combatant treated as a prisoner of war.

➥ International Humanitarian Law - Fourth 1949 Geneva Convention

➥ http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9...25641e004a9e68

[Eleven]

If a tenth of the monies given to the government of Somalia were provided to a defence operation then there'd be the right protection, best by fast boat prepared to board and recover the situation. There may be innocent casualties, and from the task force, but where will it end if nothing is done.
They have rights, and we need to not make the situation worse. By using the aid money the Somali government might consider taking action.
We should remember though, that the expansion of AlQuied is due to our intervention in Iraq searching for weapons of mass destruction. What a huge lie that was!!!!

[osirissail]

Personal politics aside and they have no place in this thread - Piracy has been around since the first sailing vessels left Phoenica thousands of years ago. Simply put - as in above posts - they are common thieves/criminals who want to steal your "money" rather than earn their own "money." Pirates just do it on water.
- - Throughout human history they have been dealt with successfully by elimination or encouragement to find a new occupation.
- - The whole piracy of freighters/tankers/etc. in the Red Sea/Somalia area happens because it is significantly cheaper to pay ransoms of 1 million rather than route the vessels around South Africa to the Med. Also shipping companies do not want to have to hire "mercenaries" and the equipment to defend their vessels. They would rather that the taxpayers of other countries pay the costs of protecting the shipping companies vessels. It all comes down to money and profit.
- - IMHO the pirate situation in that area of the world would come to a screeching halt if all the nations with military assets in the area charged their total costs to the shipping companies transiting the area in the form of tolls, tariffs, whatever.

[Fishman_Tx]

That fits the definition of "non-state actor" which is further defined in the Geneva convention and explained as an "illegal combatant" when the activities are performed by individuals who are not in uniform .....

Originally Posted by GordMay
The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
PART VII - HIGH SEAS

Here ➥ PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Defines “piracy” thus (Article 101):

“... Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).
...”


Common usage defines piracy (maritime) as:

- Maritime Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engage in acts of robbery, and/or criminal violence at sea.

- Piracy is a robbery committed at sea.

Ok here is the difference, the defining point being missed....

Enemy/illegal/unlawful combatants are un-uniformed combatants fighting for political/governmental/religious(jihad) reasons. Soldiers, uniformed or not.

Piracy has to do with acts commited against civilians for personal gain by private individuals or groups.

A BIG Difference.

Pirates do NOT qualify as Enemy/illegal/unlawful combatants simply due to the nature of their action. They are not soldiers as defined above, they are CRIMINALS.

Not JMHO, Fact!

[speakeasy]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Personal politics aside and they have no place in this thread - Piracy has been around since the first sailing vessels left Phoenica thousands of years ago. Simply put - as in above posts - they are common thieves/criminals who want to steal your "money" rather than earn their own "money." Pirates just do it on water.
- - Throughout human history they have been dealt with successfully by elimination or encouragement to find a new occupation.
- - The whole piracy of freighters/tankers/etc. in the Red Sea/Somalia area happens because it is significantly cheaper to pay ransoms of 1 million rather than route the vessels around South Africa to the Med. Also shipping companies do not want to have to hire "mercenaries" and the equipment to defend their vessels. They would rather that the taxpayers of other countries pay the costs of protecting the shipping companies vessels. It all comes down to money and profit.
- - IMHO the pirate situation in that area of the world would come to a screeching halt if all the nations with military assets in the area charged their total costs to the shipping companies transiting the area in the form of tolls, tariffs, whatever.

Exactly.

[hellosailor]

Ah, Barnakiel?
"Ruskies are no worse than yanks, French or Israeli." My grandfather fled Russia nearly a hundred years ago to prevent being made into cannon fodder. The Tsars, Stalin, Trotsky, the purges, Siberian Labor Camps...I don't think France or Israel has ever had a similar state policy, or mass murders in unmarked graves.
I'm not saying all Russians are horned monsters (wouldn't want to defame horned monsters) and I will point out that Russia was invaded or attacked by almost every major sovereign nation in the last 100 years (not to mention earlier) so they've certainly got some rights to be paranoid. After all, during the Cold War Gary Powers was only one of some 50 acknowledged illegal penetrations of Soviet airspace by the US, and if they'd done the same thing to us--flying over DC for example--we'd have gone to war immediately.

Was the English/Spanish/French genocide against the native Indians in the US any better? I'd say not. On the other hand, we seem to have grown out of that phase quite a bit sooner. Islamists are still quite actively enjoying it. Somewhere in the middle scale...we're all the same but not quite the same. Under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, the streets were perfectly safe to walk. Except from his own goons.

All sorts of little distinctions and differences, aren't there?

Much as with pirates. Some peoples and cultures find ways to bring themselves up without bringing others down. Some build their countries, others desert them for ruin. For every "illegal" who sneaks into the US and says "But I'm working hard..." I say sure, but you've abandoned your country, if you're not proud enough to build it up--why should I think you're going to be a better contributor in mine? Pirates? Do you really think that thievery and mayhem are the only ways out of poverty? Let alone valid ones? The law of club and fang is how animals are distinguished from men. And sometimes men are just too busy to practice "animal rescue" and need to perform triage instead.

Or, as was supposedly first said at a small genocide in Utah, "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out." Give a pirate a fast chance at a better reincarnation! Otherwise, anyone who feels great pity for them, should step up to the plate and ADOPT one. If that works out, they'll probably get a Nobel Peace Prize too.

[Mariness]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Also shipping companies do not want to have to hire "mercenaries" and the equipment to defend their vessels. They would rather that the taxpayers of other countries pay the costs of protecting the shipping companies vessels. It all comes down to money and profit.
- - IMHO the pirate situation in that area of the world would come to a screeching halt if all the nations with military assets in the area charged their total costs to the shipping companies transiting the area in the form of tolls, tariffs, whatever.

We're (that's "we the consumer") going to pay for it no matter what. If military action is used, paid by taxes, that's one way.
If ransoms are paid, that cost will affect the cost of goods made by the companies paying them off. (As you mention, this is going on because the companies feel it is the least expensive option at the moment.)
If armed guards are stationed on the ship, or if they are re-routed around the southern route, that will increase shipping costs as well - and it will still end up being pushed through to us.
Even if the specific item you bought doesn't come by that route - if the company that makes your favorites is taking a financial hit because of these costs, it's going to affect your wallet. There's no way around paying for it, just a question of which angle the money comes in from.

[Fishman_Tx]

What might be cheaper and act as a deterrant to future acts of piracy would be to pay them and get the hostages and boats back. (DON'T freak just yet!)

Of course, you don't tell them about the tracker built into the money case and as soon as the "all clear" is sounded, let fly the Tomahawk.

It's cheaper than maintaining a Naval presence and you take the buggers out in the process.

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by Mariness

We're (that's "we the consumer") going to pay for it no matter what. If military action is used, paid by taxes, that's one way.
If ransoms are paid, that cost will affect the cost of goods made by the companies paying them off. (As you mention, this is going on because the companies feel it is the least expensive option at the moment.)
If armed guards are stationed on the ship, or if they are re-routed around the southern route, that will increase shipping costs as well - and it will still end up being pushed through to us.
Even if the specific item you bought doesn't come by that route - if the company that makes your favorites is taking a financial hit because of these costs, it's going to affect your wallet. There's no way around paying for it, just a question of which angle the money comes in from.

Shoot...they say our jails are too full of criminals to prosecute and detain any more, and we cant afford more or larger prisons...I say put some better behaved ones to use aboard these ships for room and board, with a small paycheck going to the shipping company, of an amount way less then what it is for keeping them housed in a jail cell somewhere...Im quite sure they would be happy for the fresh air and the target practice...

Kind of fitting dont you think?...Criminals taking care of other criminals.

With the income producing passengers aboard all these vessels "your favorites" should go down in cost right?...