Fake USCG Registration site robbing $75 from Cruisers

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Contrary to what some here may believe "free market" is not when one party has all the info and the other party in a deal is clueless. Free market is when a deal is done at arm's length (meaning no fraud, collusion, threats or other untoward behavior by either party) and BOTH parties have all the pertinent information and have legal and mental capacity to enter into the transaction.

In the OP's example I would have no problem if the private business would clearly state up front (not in their very small print somewhere at the bottom of the page) that they are providing 3rd party service to those who do not wish to deal with USCG directly. Similar to auto insurance agents or auto dealers charging $20-25-50-100 for an RMV run when a car buyer needs to physically register their car. Some people just don't have the time to stand in line and would gladly pay that much or even more for the service. That's free market and capitalism. This "documentation service" the way it presents itself is much more closer to the Nigerian scammer than to an RMV run service.

PS IMO predatory or fraudulent capitalism can never be a "free market capitalism" by definition.

I agree that it would be nice if we didn't need to read fine print.

What distinguishes a free (or free'er) market is the lack of coercion; where both parties enter into a trade, often money for a product or service without the use of force. (No one is holding a gun to anyone's head saying, "Buy this or else.)

I suspect what has gotten into people's craw here is that this is clearly a crappy deal and if only they'd read the fine print they clealy wouldn't have agreed to it.

[tdoster]

We had a discussion locally about this outfit. It is legit. Advertising choice is akin to vehicle warranty companies domain registers and the like. They do disclose they are not the USCG and follow the law regarding deceptive advertising. The average person can read and determine this and not secumb to their service fees. Now, one service they provide may be valuable to cruisers. As an agent, they can handle the yearly renewal and just forward you the new certificate each year. That is worth a premiun, but not what they are charging. The other service is initial documentaion and abstract services. Again, what is that worth to someone to not have to travese the USCG site to figure it out on their own. The term should always be caveat emptor regardless, and I am not on the side of this business and their advertising decessions. I would be careful calling it a scam the way you did. If they are following the law, then the scam comment could be considered slander.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by tdoster

We had a discussion locally about this outfit. It is legit. Advertising choice is akin to vehicle warranty companies domain registers and the like. They do disclose they are not the USCG and follow the law regarding deceptive advertising. The average person can read and determine this and not secumb to their service fees. Now, one service they provide may be valuable to cruisers. As an agent, they can handle the yearly renewal and just forward you the new certificate each year. That is worth a premiun, but not what they are charging. The other service is initial documentaion and abstract services. Again, what is that worth to someone to not have to travese the USCG site to figure it out on their own. The term should always be caveat emptor regardless, and I am not on the side of this business and their advertising decessions. I would be careful calling it a scam the way you did. If they are following the law, then the scam comment could be considered slander.

They know exactly what they are doing. And, it is a scam. Being legal doesn't change that.

[wingless]

Originally Posted by wingless

There is no hesitation for me to stand behind every statement I made in this topic. There have been highly disparaging and highly inaccurate statements made, but not by me.

IMO, it is inappropriate to use: "fake"; "robbing"; "sucked-in"; "scam"; "beware"; "rapist"; "steals"; "scammer"; "taking refund checks"; "misleading"; "unethical"; "predatory"; "not legitimate" and "bad behavior" because one part of a person's business charges a fee to provide a service.

There has not been any evidence of any misrepresentation or fraud by Captain John Soria or by U.S. Marine Surveyors, Inc., but they have been called-out by name for fraudulent conduct.

IMO all these statements could / should be considered libel and have NO place in this forum.

Originally Posted by tdoster

... I would be careful calling it a scam the way you did. If they are following the law, then the scam comment could be considered slander.

FWIW, slander applies to the spoken word, libel is applicable to written defamatory or maliciously damaging misrepresention.

While I'm not a lawyer, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[tdoster]

Apple an Apple. Owner of the business who is following the law can easily bring DEFAMATION suit based upon what is said here. My point is the road the hell is paved in good intentions. The owner and the courts may not agree with your strong assesment. Discussion is warranted, but be careful with the descriptions.

[sailerman]

In addition to other obvious issues, John Soria is guilty of selling agreements reached under false pretenses. His payment agreement states,


" I agree to pay the above total amount according to the card issuer agreement and hereby authorize the charge for the total amount above for the processing of selected USCG documents. I understand that my application will be processed in the order in which it is received by U.S. Vessel Documentation. I understand that application and processing fees are non-refundable as per 46 CFR 67.500(e)


Here is the actual language of 46 CFR 67.500,

"§ 67.500 Applicability.
(a) This subpart specifies documentation
services provided for vessels for
which fees are applicable. No documentation
service for which a fee is applicable
will be performed until the appropriate
fee has been paid. Fees are
contained in Table 67.550.
(b) There is no fee for the annual renewal
of endorsements upon the Certificate
of Documentation, unless renewal
is late.
(c) There is no fee for replacement of
a Certificate of Documentation due to
a wrongful withholding.
(d) The Director, National Vessel
Documentation Center may waive collection
of fees applicable under this
subpart for a service provided to a Federal
agency when the fee would be directly
paid with federally-appropriated
funds by a Federal agency acting in its
own behalf.
(e) Application fees under this subpart
are not refundable."

As you can see, his restatement of the CFR has been altered to include protection to parties who are not USCG namely his company and inclusion of his processing fees.

He convinces boaters to sign agreements under false pretenses.

Someone tell me this is not a fraud.

[wingless]

Originally Posted by sailerman

In addition to other obvious issues, John Soria is guilty of selling agreements reached under false pretenses. His payment agreement states,


" I agree to pay the above total amount according to the card issuer agreement and hereby authorize the charge for the total amount above for the processing of selected USCG documents. I understand that my application will be processed in the order in which it is received by U.S. Vessel Documentation. I understand that application and processing fees are non-refundable as per 46 CFR 67.500(e)


Here is the actual language of 46 CFR 67.500,

"§ 67.500 Applicability.
(a) This subpart specifies documentation services provided for vessels for which fees are applicable. No documentation service for which a fee is applicable will be performed until the appropriate fee has been paid. Fees are contained in Table 67.550.

(b) There is no fee for the annual renewal of endorsements upon the Certificate of Documentation, unless renewal is late.

(c) There is no fee for replacement of a Certificate of Documentation due to a wrongful withholding.

(d) The Director, National Vessel Documentation Center may waive collection of fees applicable under this subpart for a service provided to a Federal agency when the fee would be directly paid with federally-appropriated funds by a Federal agency acting in its own behalf.

(e) Application fees under this subpart are not refundable."


As you can see, his restatement of the CFR has been altered to include protection to parties who are not USCG namely his company and inclusion of his processing fees.

He convinces boaters to sign agreements under false pretenses.

Someone tell me this is not a fraud.

Welcome to the forum!

Sorry, but your point is not clear to me. Can this please be expressed differently?

My read is that the site states the fee is not refundable. The USCG states their standards for handling fees.

Where is the perceived conflict or fraud?

[Scott Berg]

I think the point is that several services make their websites LOOK like official ones (while having small print at the bottom). Offering a service is fine, making it look you are an official agency isn't. I've received letters like this one that purport to be official from several companies for radio license renewal and document renewal. Legitimate companies don't make their websites look like government ones.