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Old 02-08-2013, 08:58   #76
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Why would a single case of GPS hacking ( and we don't have any real details) make yiu dust of your sextant anyway


Dave
A single revealed case, perhaps, under recorded and academic circumstances. If I was skimming $15 a month from your hacked bank account, I could probably do so for years before you noticed. Similarly, if you wished to train yourself on GPS hacks, you'd start small.

EDIT: I'm aware the above statement sounds of the crinkle of a tin foil hat, but I invoke it only for illustrative purposes. If there is a buck or a laugh in some sort of mischief, odds are good that somewhere, someone is giving it a shot.

My sextant has little dust, just as do the hand bearing compass, the little 45 degree tape marks on the rail, the binoculars and the paper charts. All are there to be used in concert if there is any ambiguity about our position.

I also concur that exactitude is not really required in sailing. If you can confirm you are not standing into danger, you will get there eventually.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:22   #77
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

We got where we wanted to go before GPS, and I guess we could still find our way again if we had to LOL !
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:10   #78
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
We got where we wanted to go before GPS, and I guess we could still find our way again if we had to LOL !
Just think, we survived without computers or TV's.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:17   #79
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

kvb-
"Getting something in a retrograde orbit is not that easy..."
OK, let's suppose you are moving at a speed of 8 kilometer per second (estimated groundspeed) as GPS satellites do. If I throw up a handful or rocks in simple stationary orbit, not circling the globe...relative to your speed they are still retrograde enough. But launching something "this way" versus "that way" is just rocket science, it can still be done easily enough, it just costs more. Compared to the cost of saving one warship or one combat aircraft? Peanuts.

"But then, only idiots wage war on the US."
Well, the good lord loves idiots, he keeps on making so many of them.

"And the Chinese aren't idiots." Ah, that's debateable. Some of their leadership are very clever and willing to make hard plans for the long run, but idiocy knows no borders, or limits.

"You can be sure that GPS assisted precision landing will not be permitted before this issue is solved. " It isn't just landings, the FAA is under heavy pressure from airline lobbyi$t$, the same folks who convinced them to shut down the sky marshal system in the 80's and set the stage to allow 9/11, for GPS-guided flight routes, which will allow higher density in the routes. Turn off GPS and you're going to find a lot of hungry jet engines saying "I have to land NOW" with no idea of how to navigate to a runway, except the old "follow the highway to the river".

But all of that is nothing new or different. Even in the 1950's the US used to print and distribute guidebooks for "freedom fighters" teaching them how easy it was to disrupt a modern regime, in order to overthrow it. Some of the fringe printing companies still reprint and sell that stuff, so the knowledge is out there before and beyond the internet.

Look at the northeast blackout of 2003. Three days (contrary to news reports saying less) without power in major areas, all because a tree limb wasn't trimmed. Supposedly. One tree limb? Modern societies are easily disrupted, with major consequences. Hardening the systems is terribly expensive. So, we ignore, and pretend, and take great comfort in the fact that the bad guys are usually just too dumb to figure it out. Usually--but like roaches, they're persistent.

Going back to GPS, I don't think your school was extracting much from the encrypted military GPS signals. More likely that unknown to you, they had applied for a permit to actually receive them. Anyone, even private individuals, was allowed to apply for those permits if they could show a need for the high-precision (non-diddled) signals. Today, with WAAS and DGPS, you'd be hard pressed to justify the permit but AFAIK the systems are still the same, and even a new military GPS signal would be easily spoofed (or buried) by simply putting up a local GPS-type transmitter.

Heck, you could buy the jammers on ebay, truckers were using them so their operators couldn't ell when someone was goofing off with the company truck. The FCC just put the squeeze on eBay to stop those sales this year. Cell phone jammers, too.

None of which worries me for my purposes. Either I can drop an anchor, or pilot, or aim for the sunrise and sunset. As long as the food and water hold out, there's always a way to navigate.<G>

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You can go to any air force quartermaster and order up some antiradiation missiles. Of course, you'll probably have to show some paperwork before they'll release them. But yes, basically the same ones they use to take out enemy missile launching systems and other "radar" homing missiles, can take out any radiation emitter, including the GPS jammer. And if you've got the right paperwork, you can get them for free.<G>
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:25   #80
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
But then, only idiots wage war on the US. And the Chinese aren't idiots.
Lots of people are waging war on the USA, including the Chinese - they are just not doing so idiotically. And indeed, many of the others keep getting voted into office.

Around the East coast of here (Old_Jersey ) GPS playing silly beggars not unknown. In any event, IMO if someone "navigates" to the last 2 inches of GPS accuracy then they haven't exactly understood navigation.....and GPS on or not, then only a matter of time before they come a cropper.

Of course, that would only be due to bad luck and nobody's fault (see, I am finally getting with the program ).
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:08   #81
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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then only a matter of time before they come a cropper.
David gets a gold star for that quip. I have been waiting ever so long for someone to use that phrase again.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:46   #82
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

As it said in the article... They hackers spoofed the GPS and then the crew adjusted the Autopilot to the new course.

Had they been using a paper chart and magnetic compass as a back up, they would have caught the error in the GPS System.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:21   #83
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
We got where we wanted to go before GPS, and I guess we could still find our way again if we had to LOL !
I think that's the difference in many cases. Those who started sailing with GPS are a lot more dependent on it than those of us who didn't.

My first electronic nav gear was a Loran and I only used it to check and see if it thought I was at the the same place I thought I was at.

I'm amazed how many people I run into that have a nice GPS chartplotter, and not one single paper chart on board, much less a hand bearing compass, dividers, parallel rules, etc..
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:47   #84
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

The spoofing only effects the GPS. The electronic charts on the chartplotter were still functioning normally.

Paper or electronic charts are irrelevant both would show the GPS was in error.

What was needed was an independent means of fixing the position.

There is no necessity for paper charts with this problem.

An electronic chart with a radar overlay is one of the best tools to quickly detect GPS (or more commonly chart) error in real time, but in the absence of radar conventional navigational techniques with electronic, or paper charts would have shown the problem.

This is not an example where paper charts are a requirement.

BTW this is a link to the engineering team that did it:
http://www.engr.utexas.edu/features/...-gps-spoofing#
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:08   #85
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

Spoofing requires a precise knowledge of the vessels position, which is then manipulated. The spoofing signal is specific to individual vessel.

A general jamming signal can be sent out to cover all vessels in an area, but this would immediately show as a bad fix ( usually with alarm) on the GPS.

It is possible for a pleasure boat to be in an area with a general jamming signal, but its hard to imagine the situation where a pleasure vessel would be the specific target of spoofing attack unless you are in the habit of entertaining royalty, or presidents

I don't think we have anything practical to fear from spoofing.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:46   #86
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Originally Posted by jeremiason View Post
As it said in the article... They hackers spoofed the GPS and then the crew adjusted the Autopilot to the new course.

Had they been using a paper chart and magnetic compass as a back up, they would have caught the error in the GPS System.
Not really. Your implying that they would have taken a DR fix as more reliable than a GPS fix. It is just as likely that they would have have calculated the very odd and unexpected current that appeared to be affecting their ship. Spoofing needs to be done within reason, so that it is not quickly detected.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:47   #87
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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"You can be sure that GPS assisted precision landing will not be permitted before this issue is solved. " It isn't just landings, the FAA is under heavy pressure from airline lobbyi$t$, the same folks who convinced them to shut down the sky marshal system in the 80's and set the stage to allow 9/11, for GPS-guided flight routes, which will allow higher density in the routes. Turn off GPS and you're going to find a lot of hungry jet engines saying "I have to land NOW" with no idea of how to navigate to a runway, except the old "follow the highway to the river".
Well, there is the old pilot's joke about IFR meaning I Follow Roadways rather than Instrument Flight Rules, but jokes aside, pilots have other good options.

VOR has been their standard navigation system for eons & it works well. I've never flown a plane that didn't have at least one VOR reciever on board. I don't always use them, but they are always there if needed. Even my hand held aircraft radio has a VOR in it & I have very basic one that probably went obsolete 20 years ago.

Even if the GPS & the VOR both went out, you can still get a DL steer from the tower, assuming that you are flying to a controlled field.

If you somehow find yourself in hell's trifecta, where all three of those were to fail at the same time, You can still resort to your compass and/or your gyroscopic heading indicator & dead reckoning.

You can also follow landmarks if you are flying over land. As far as I know, commercial pilots are still required to carry paper charts. That second, square-ish looking case that pilots carry on top of their carry-on bag is their chart case. If you are flying over water, you are required to have an extra set of redundant equipment on board, including extra communication & navigational equipment.

Pilots have plenty of options. They also need to be trained to use those options & pass a test before they are given a license. They take periodic refresher courses & have to take retests too.

I see no problems with letting pilots use GPS systems in addition to what they already have. GPS systems in planes work great. Up there, above the clouds, the satellite reception is spectacular.

Pilots, especially commercial pilots, don't worry me so much. Untrained, unskilled weekend-warriors in boats...are another story.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:10   #88
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The spoofing only effects the GPS. The electronic charts on the chartplotter were still functioning normally.

Paper or electronic charts are irrelevant both would show the GPS was in error.

What was needed was an independent means of fixing the position.

There is no necessity for paper charts with this problem.

An electronic chart with a radar overlay is one of the best tools to quickly detect GPS (or more commonly chart) error in real time, but in the absence of radar conventional navigational techniques with electronic, or paper charts would have shown the problem.

This is not an example where paper charts are a requirement.

BTW this is a link to the engineering team that did it:
UT Austin Researchers Spoof Superyacht at Sea - Cockrell School of Engineering
I got news for you, as long as we are just talking possible, rather than probable. Radar can be spoofed, too. It's only been happening since ww2.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:28   #89
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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I got news for you, as long as we are just talking possible, rather than probable. Radar can be spoofed, too. It's only been happening since ww2.
I think a shoulder mounted rocket launcher might be a bit cheaper and easier
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:17   #90
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Re: Dust Off Your Sextants! GPS Hacked!

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Just think, we survived without computers or TV's.
or electricity
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