Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-05-2016, 21:04   #931
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,020
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
Who decided on the arbitrary 30 years? Why not 75 years? Or why not 300 years?
I think I have posted this before.

The World Meteorological Organization set the 30 year time frame; it is not arbitrary.

Quote:
Climate “normals” are reference points used by climatologists to compare current climatological trends to that of the past or what is considered “normal”. A Normal is defined as the arithmetic average of a climate element (e.g. temperature) over a 30-year period. A 30 year period is used, as it is long enough to filter out any interannual variation or anomalies, but also short enough to be able to show longer climatic trends.
__________________

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 21:05   #932
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,502
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
Who decided on the arbitrary 30 years? Why not 75 years? Or why not 300 years?
Bingo...you asked the question that the MMGW Cultists don't want to answer because they want to pick the time line to help back up their Holy Scriptures....not because science has anything to do with it.
__________________

__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 21:12   #933
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,020
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Bingo...you asked the question that the MMGW Cultists don't want to answer because they want to pick the time line to help back up their Holy Scriptures....not because science has anything to do with it.
I answered it.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 21:46   #934
Registered User
 
GoingWalkabout's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA & Argentina
Boat: In the market for a Lagoon 56 (seems like the perfect fit)
Posts: 1,474
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I think I have posted this before.

The World Meteorological Organization set the 30 year time frame; it is not arbitrary.
Looks arbitrary to me. I think 100 years is long enough to filter out the anomalies along with the rest of the BS. But if your trying to study what happened to all the Cedar forests in Lebanon 2000 years ago I don't think 100 years will give you the answer.
__________________
GoingWalkabout is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 22:06   #935
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,662
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Once again, you post a one-sided, misleading comment on the other CC thread as if it is uncontroverted, have it challenged by those who obviously have a better understanding of basic economics, but nevertheless post it again on a different thread as if somehow it will be less misleading this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A carbon tax is simply a means of putting a cost on excess CO2. Any company that has waste products in a liquid or solid form has to pay to have it properly disposed. Are invisible gases exempt just because we cannot see them in the air?

There are different permutations and proposals for a "carbon tax," but the only example you have repeatedly used from B.C. will not cost "[a]ny company that has waste products [in the form of] invisible gases." As pointed out time & again, this is because the tax that is collected by the fossil fuel co. from the first sale is passed along in full to the consumer/end user at the pump. Misleading people about this simple fact will not make it go away.

A carbon tax is collected from fossil-fuel companies upon the first sale at the mine, wellhead or port of entry.

Correct. But the company is then reimbursed that same amount by collecting it from the consumer. And since all the cos. would be required to pay and then reimburse themselves for the tax, none are at a competitive disadvantage.

The money collected via this fee would be distributed to the public as a monthly “dividend” or “green check.” Distributing all of the revenue equitably to households will ensure that families can afford the energy they need during the transition to a clean energy future, and it should help win public support for a rising carbon fee.

More like some fraction of the money collected will be redistributed to the public. I note your use of the word "equitably," the absence of the word "government" (who will be the entity doing the redistributing), and the goal of "win[ning] public support for a rising carbon fee."

Question:

Does the "equitable" distribution mean that every member of the public receives a "green check" in the same amount, regardless of how the amount correlates to their consumption of fossil fuels? Or will it be fairly apportioned based on actual amounts of consumption? If not, then it is grossly [U]inequitable[U] to people whose consumption is non-discretionary, i.e. compelled by long commutes to work & school for example. These people would get the same check as people who perhaps live a minimalist life on a sailboat, rarely drive, or otherwise have a low "carbon footprint." It would also be the same check affluent people with large houses, gas-guzzling cars, and a high consumption lifestyle will receive. This would be far beyond those calling a "flat tax" unfair, since it would amount to a highly regressive tax that will cost disproportionately more for those who can least afford it. Sound familiar?

The stated goal is to encourage consumers to reduce their fossil fuel consumption by making it more expensive. Might discourage some of those Sunday joy rides, but fossil fuels are a necessity for most, not a discretionary or luxury good. This is why all but a handful of U.S. states have repealed taxes on food and some forms of medical care. It is the exact opposite of what a progressive tax is theoretically designed to do, namely increase the rate of taxation for those who can more easily afford it. Whether the "green check" is fairly apportioned or not, it is obvious that the "dividend" consumers would receive will be a lesser amount than the taxes they paid at the pump, and all at no cost to the fossil fuel co.


There is no government revenue and no corporate profit.

In theory, yes. But there are govt. costs in the collection, enforcement, and redistribution of the tax which, guess what, those same consumers will also have to pay. But most critically, the fossil fuel cos. themselves incur no costs. So your analogy to cos. that have waste products in a liquid or solid form who have to pay to have it properly disposed is at best misplaced, and at worst a distortion, at least in the B.C. example you provided.

British Columbia has such system.
And if, as you have also cited on the other thread, this has led to reduced consumption and emissions, it is nothing more than a punitive tax on those who have no choice but be dependent on fossil fuels whether they like it or not. And it accomplishes all of this "social good" at zero cost to the fossil fuel cos., but at additional expense to consumers & taxpayers. The only beneficiaries are govt. bureaucrats whose job it is to redistribute money taken from the consumer/taxpayer, only to have a fraction of it returned to the consumer/taxpayer.

So exactly how many citizens do you believe this scheme will win over? Shall we now go ahead and tell them how much they are reducing the earth's warming?? I can certainly see why you need to mislead, distort, and obfuscate to get such policies adopted.

Now . . . wait for it . . . here comes the robotic reply that "Exxon/Mobil has come out in favor of a carbon tax." As if an oil co.'s motivation is to encourage less demand for their product.

And round & round we go . . . .
__________________
Exile is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 22:30   #936
Marine Service Provider
 
newhaul's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 3,268
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Exile
I asked jack a rather pointed question on the carbon tax collected at the well head. He never answered my query .
Here it is again
What happens to all the tax funds that are collected when the petroleum is not used to manufacture fuel, but rather in the production of plastics and other polimers .
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 22:39   #937
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,006
Images: 5
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post

One decent volcano eruption surpass the total gas outputs of all the factories of China over a number of years.
I'm still wondering if i should be making preparation for arctic type cruising because of the global cooling that is now being accelerated by volcanoes.
Isn't it embarrassing for you to continue making fact-less claims like this.
You'll need a boat first before your cruise to the Arctic. Bon voyage now.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 22:44   #938
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,006
Images: 5
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
Just as I thought. It's not global warming we should be worried about. It's getting very wet and cold out there.

Reported today.

So far this May, D.C. has had a record number of rainy days (19 of 23) and the coolest high temperatures since 1882. This May’s afternoon highs are running an incredible 15 degrees cooler than last May’s. And we still haven’t hit 80 degrees.

The Southeast Regional Climate Center says D.C.’s recent temperatures most resemble San Francisco’s.
CLIMATE CHANGE...Come on...you can do it
CLIMATE CHANGE...Come on...say it...
CLIMATE CHANGE...all together now
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply
Old 23-05-2016, 22:48   #939
Marine Service Provider
 
newhaul's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 3,268
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
CLIMATE CHANGE...Come on...you can do it
CLIMATE CHANGE...Come on...say it...
CLIMATE CHANGE...all together now


Nope its not climate change its colder than normal. Therefore it is weather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout
Just as I thought. It's not global warming we should be worried about. It's getting very wet and cold out there.

Reported today.

So far this May, D.C. has had a record number of rainy days (19 of 23) and the coolest high temperatures since 1882. This May’s afternoon highs are running an incredible 15 degrees cooler than last May’s. And we still haven’t hit 80 degrees.

The Southeast Regional Climate Center says D.C.’s recent temperatures most resemble San Francisco’s
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply
Old 24-05-2016, 00:03   #940
Registered User
 
adoxograph's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ 'ʇsɐoɔ ǝuıɥsuns
Boat: Landlocked right now.
Posts: 355
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

I see you kids found a new playground!
__________________
adoxograph is offline   Reply
Old 24-05-2016, 00:25   #941
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,889
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Omg is this one going to divert in to politics, abuse, accusations as well?

Oh well, it's entertaining I guess. I'll get my pop corn and sit back and watch

__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply
Old 24-05-2016, 01:14   #942
Registered User
 
adoxograph's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ 'ʇsɐoɔ ǝuıɥsuns
Boat: Landlocked right now.
Posts: 355
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Omg is this one going to divert in to politics, abuse, accusations as well?

Oh well, it's entertaining I guess. I'll get my pop corn and sit back and watch

I hope not. In the end the other one was not fun to watch anymore.

Mind if I join you?
__________________
adoxograph is offline   Reply
Old 24-05-2016, 01:37   #943
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,889
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by adoxograph View Post
I hope not. In the end the other one was not fun to watch anymore.

Mind if I join you?


__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply
Old 24-05-2016, 06:29   #944
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,020
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
Exile
I asked jack a rather pointed question on the carbon tax collected at the well head. He never answered my query .
Here it is again
What happens to all the tax funds that are collected when the petroleum is not used to manufacture fuel, but rather in the production of plastics and other polimers .
I did answer the question. In BC, ALL of the carbon tax results in lower taxes.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply
Old 24-05-2016, 06:33   #945
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,020
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
CLIMATE CHANGE...Come on...you can do it
CLIMATE CHANGE...Come on...say it...
CLIMATE CHANGE...all together now
Global Warming = increased temperatures

Climate Change = increased temperatures, variations in precipitation, increased extreme weather, etc.

You can thanks the GOP for politicizing the term "Climate Change".
Frank Luntz Memorandum to Bush White House, 2002

"Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate, and defer to scientists and other experts in the field."

"The scientific debate is closing [against us] but not yet closed. There is still a window of opportunity to challenge the science."

" It’s time for us to start talking about “climate change” instead of global warming

1. “Climate change” is less frightening than “global warming.” As one focus group participant noted, climate change “sounds like you’re going from Pittsburgh to Fort Lauderdale.” While global warming has catastrophic connotations attached to it, climate change suggests a more controllable and less emotional challenge. "
__________________

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply
Closed Thread

Tags
arc, cooling, cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I love cruising because it teaches humility zboss General Sailing Forum 38 17-09-2014 19:38
A Boat Is Better than a Wife, Because . . . BlueWaterSail Off Topic Forum 94 20-02-2011 19:10
Current Strategies in Solar Power ? Roy M Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 47 18-07-2010 05:37
i'm Really a Tiller Guy, because i Like the Responsiveness of a Multihull... Pipeline Multihull Sailboats 2 08-01-2010 07:32
Men return to Mountains and to the Sea because.... JohnnyB Challenges 4 10-10-2008 08:48


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.