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Old 30-11-2015, 09:37   #31
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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I disagree. There is still hugs amounts of oil that are reachable. We just can't get to it profitably (yet). If we don't make enough ground with non-fossil fuel sources quickly enough, the price of oil will start to rise as we run out of the easier sources. As the cost of gas increases, you'll see more and more money poured into hybrids and non-fossil fuel-burning technologies.

There are too many lives, livelihoods, and too much money with too many people involved to drop that ball and have the last drop of oil be a surprise.

We DO need to agree when we're done killing thousands per year burning coal and transition those power plants to cleaner technologies.
No my point is that mankind literally "stumbled across" coal and oil. Oil was oozing out of the ground in pennsylvania for example. "Hard to get" oil would just never have even been discovered, never mind extracted and used.

And mankind's end will not come from an overt lack of energy, it will come from stupidity and choosing to ignore problems that are already starting to kill us. Superbugs that cannot be controlled any more etc. Once knocked down to a certain (technological) level, then mankind will be unable to rise again because to do so would require access to "free" energy which will be gone.

LOTS of energy may be left, just so hard to extract that it can't be done at that technological level. Think about fracking as an example. Do you think that the citizenry of 1899 could have even envisioned that, never mind accomplished it?

It is not hard to envision a scenario where wheat and corn are wiped out just as an example. What happens to mankind then? Those two grains are the foundation of existence, feeding not only man directly but chickens, cows and pigs and even farmed fish.

I can no longer hunt for survival. Too many people, not enough deer. And not enough time to do that and program my computer. It won't take much to just tip the balance and begin the rapid slide into chaos, from which a return is impossible.
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:40   #32
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Kinda curious, how many of the climate change believers ( not sure whether it's warming or cooling right now ) drink from bottled water??? I ask this because the industry uses 50 million barrels of oil to manufacture and deliver bottled water. To put it in perspective look at your plastic bottle and imagine it takes 25% of the volume in oil to produce it. And then when it is empty it won't just melt away unless recycled and the recycled part is pretty small and we have huge islands of plastic floating in our oceans
ROTFL. I assume you are saying that climate change deniers don't drink bottled water?

Or simply that we can't fix it so why bother trying?
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:43   #33
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Kinda curious, how many of the climate change believers ( not sure whether it's warming or cooling right now ) drink from bottled water??? I ask this because the industry uses 50 million barrels of oil to manufacture and deliver bottled water. To put it in perspective look at your plastic bottle and imagine it takes 25% of the volume in oil to produce it. And then when it is empty it won't just melt away unless recycled and the recycled part is pretty small and we have huge islands of plastic floating in our oceans
Ever looked up what it takes to make solar panels? Same deal. A huge amount of oil ends up in plastics. In a few million years the new petroleum fields will have come from plastic. Can't wait.
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:46   #34
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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ROTFL. I assume you are saying that climate change deniers don't drink bottled water?

Or simply that we can't fix it so why bother trying?

Just and easy to fix environmental problem that would make a difference
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:47   #35
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Ever looked up what it takes to make solar panels? Same deal. A huge amount of oil ends up in plastics. In a few million years the new petroleum fields will have come from plastic. Can't wait.
Or... the plastic can be burned directly by the energy poor!

And they won't have a clue how bad the fumes are.
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:54   #36
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Kinda curious, how many of the climate change believers ( not sure whether it's warming or cooling right now ) drink from bottled water??? I ask this because the industry uses 50 million barrels of oil to manufacture and deliver bottled water. To put it in perspective look at your plastic bottle and imagine it takes 25% of the volume in oil to produce it. And then when it is empty it won't just melt away unless recycled and the recycled part is pretty small and we have huge islands of plastic floating in our oceans
This sounds suspiciously like an attempt at a straw man attack, but there is still a point to be made here.

There's more than just remembering to use your own refillable bottle. About 3% of the energy generated in the US is simply thrown in the trash in the form of uneaten food. Obviously some of that is stuff that's gone bad and is no longer safe, but how much of even that is stuff we bought, shoved in the back (or bottom) of the fridge and simply forgot about? That's not just wasting food (and the water, and energy that went into making it), that's throwing your own money down the drain.
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:58   #37
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Just and easy to fix environmental problem that would make a difference
There is no such thing as an "easy to fix environmental problem". If there were then that problem wouldn't exist.

In any case, it requires "government" to "force" change and we all know about how bad government is. And don't even THINK about forcing me to do anything.

I worked at a screw factory in New England. For decades they (and everyone else) had just dumped the used cleaners, oils, plating chemicals etc into the creek behind the plant.

The government "forced" them to clean up.

And yet what do our right leaning political friends think of that?

Government? BAD, BAD, BAD!!!

The EPA. OMG BEYOND BAD!!!

And they are absolutely correct of course. Cleaning the environment (or keeping it clean) costs money, money that cannot flow to shareholders.

Did I mention BAD!!!???
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Old 30-11-2015, 10:06   #38
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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This sounds suspiciously like an attempt at a straw man attack, but there is still a point to be made here.

There's more than just remembering to use your own refillable bottle. About 3% of the energy generated in the US is simply thrown in the trash in the form of uneaten food. Obviously some of that is stuff that's gone bad and is no longer safe, but how much of even that is stuff we bought, shoved in the back (or bottom) of the fridge and simply forgot about? That's not just wasting food (and the water, and energy that went into making it), that's throwing your own money down the drain.
Straw man attack? No.

Point is that it takes quite a bit of oil and pollution for a bottle of water, which has less restrictions than the water that comes out of your faucet at home ( in the USA ) We have a jeep that we take out wheeling and it seems that I always manage to fill up at least one garbage bag full of fricking plastic bottles that people seem to think it is OK to just chuck their vehicles in the desert.
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Old 30-11-2015, 10:26   #39
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Straw man attack? No.

Point is that it takes quite a bit of oil and pollution for a bottle of water
...
I wasn't arguing about how bad bottled water is. There's plenty of information about how screwed up that whole marketing scheme is. "Just Eat It", and the Story of Stuff site are a couple of many examples. Not to mention how the junk in the ocean gyres really is coming back around to bite us.

No, I was speaking to the intro part of your post:

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Kinda curious, how many of the climate change believers ( not sure whether it's warming or cooling right now ) drink from bottled water???
...
Worded that way, it comes across as a straw man attack: "Climate change believers can't be believed because they're just a bunch of hypocrites."

Considering how much you hate picking up other's trash, I'm a little confused why you would spotlight a group that also hates to see litter.
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Old 30-11-2015, 10:34   #40
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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We cant even predict the weather out more than a few days.
There's a big difference between weather and climate.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson says it much better than I can

"Keep your eye on the man, and not the dog."
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Old 30-11-2015, 11:47   #41
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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For sale or trade 12v AC unit will trade for propane heating system 😜
I'm heading south and will trade my heater buddy for your ac unit. I need more snow its melting to fast here today :
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Old 30-11-2015, 12:18   #42
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

I read somewhere in these ramblings that the sea level has risen dramatically,and that temperatures have also risen.
I live on a small island just of the coast of europe and I can assure you that the sea level here has not risen, nor has the temperature.
The winters are still bloody cold and the summers not much better.
When did people stop believing their eyes but believing the crap that the media spout.
Must be city dwellers.
Fear equals easy way to raise taxes
Nuff said
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Old 30-11-2015, 12:19   #43
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Depressing. We used to be a nation that valued science. We had a good run in the century where that was the case. Now it looks like an all too big a slice of our populace has simply lumped scientists into that disgraced group of politicians, teachers, athletes, judges, police officers, doctors, lawyers, and journalists. Of course, it could just be that the average age of a sailor is somewhere north of 70 so few of us will have to live with the consequences. Frick the kids...
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Old 30-11-2015, 12:23   #44
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

What planet are you talking about?
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Old 30-11-2015, 12:38   #45
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Depressing. We used to be a nation that valued science. We had a good run in the century where that was the case. Now it looks like an all too big a slice of our populace has simply lumped scientists into that disgraced group of politicians, teachers, athletes, judges, police officers, doctors, lawyers, and journalists. Of course, it could just be that the average age of a sailor is somewhere north of 70 so few of us will have to live with the consequences. Frick the kids...
Well ,I believe that people do value science still. It may simply be that they have had such conflicting views ( all of them gospel of course, until that is, the next sure thing comes along ) from the experts that they have grown a little weary of them.
Most of the rubbish that comes our way is on a par with the casting of runes etc ;
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