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Old 09-09-2015, 16:53   #76
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by Mule View Post
Defender just lost a customer ... $13 an hour is slaving.
Where else would you order boating stuff from, that pays $20+/hour to warehouse workers?
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Old 09-09-2015, 16:56   #77
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
No, no Jon, clearly you don't understand. WM is not being turned into a clothing emporium, but they are rather selling the boating lifestyle. Don't you see??

Excellent obit -- not just about the co.'s founder but how he created an entity which made yachting that much more accessible to those with less means.
My 2 favorite marine chandlers of all time - both gone now - were the original Defender store in New Rochelle, and Doc Freeman's in the Ballard district of Seattle... Walking into either of those places, it was like an excursion to the original Abercrombie & Fitch store in Manhattan when I was a kid... Me and my friends would take the bus into the city, telling our parents we were headed for the Museum of Natural History, but we'd make a beeline for Abercrombie, instead... ;-) A world long gone, on so many levels, for sure...

Here's a good piece about Doc Freeman's, this bit pretty much sums it up:

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For generations of boat owners, visiting the original wood-floored store to browse the tight-packed shelves and countless cubbyholes for valves, varnish, rope and thousands of other items was part of the whole boating experience. It's what made Doc Freeman's a special place for anyone around here who made their living from boats or simply took pleasure from them.

"Doc Freeman's was like walking into a graduate program in esoteric maritime stuff," said Dick Wagner, founding director of the Center for Wooden Boats. "It was an education center, a therapy center, and I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if it wasn't for Doc Freeman's."

Business & Technology | Tide turned on Doc Freeman's | Seattle Times Newspaper
Thread drift follows... ;-)

Another sad development in the American yachting industry, is the recent announcement that Palmer Johnson is shutting down their yard in Sturgeon Bay, WI, and moving their operation to the Netherlands... Brings them closer to all those Russian billionaires, I suppose...

Sure, PJ hasn't built a sailing yacht in probably 20 years, and none of the megayachts they've built in recent decades will ever fly the Stars & Stripes, but still... what a heritage Palmer Johnson has, having built dozens of legendary racing and cruising yachts, Ted Turner's '79 Fastnet winner TENACIOUS perhaps the best known...

Another era long gone, never to return... One of my favorite sights on the Erie Canal, is this rock wall just beyond Lock 17 at Little Falls... Hard to believe nowadays, but there was a time when racing thoroughbreds like TENACIOUS and her rival RUNNING TIDE made the trek out to the lakes for the Chicago-Mac on their own bottoms...

TENACIOUS and KAHILI II were both built in Sturgeon Bay, but in my opinion Al van Metre's RUNNING TIDE was the most beautiful offshore racing yacht I have ever seen...






S&S Design #1969... Sparkman & Stephens: Design 1969 - Running Tide


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Old 09-09-2015, 17:39   #78
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by RedHerring View Post
Where else would you order boating stuff from, that pays $20+/hour to warehouse workers?
Yeah, I wondered about that one, as well...

West Marine pays ASSISTANT MANAGERS in their stores $13/hr, according to glassdoor.com...

It has been suggested that Defender needs to have Amazon do all their shipping... Well, their 'Warehouse Associates' also earn $13/hr...

How about Alibaba, then? Yeah, I hear Jack Ma pays those folks shipping that Chinese Counterfeit Crap top dollar, no doubt about it...

;-)
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Old 09-09-2015, 18:19   #79
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

If its $13 an hour now, that's a big increase over a few years back. WM has s lot of retired folks working in the stores or people with other income streams all working their to get what used to be an excellent discount. There are also some folks that start their young and the men generally become store managers or district managers if they work hard. Most of the women dong seem to het promoted much unless they have retail management experience outside WM. Guess WM can only teach management to males.
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Old 09-09-2015, 18:28   #80
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
[/b]

An aside, a friend of mine came to Canada from Mexico as a temporary foreign worker, and transitioned to immigrating here.

He obtained work in a grocery warehouse. Although his base pay is only $12 an hour, he takes home between 65 and $70,000 a year. The reason is for the bonus structure that rewards both speed and accuracy. He is allowed one mistake a week, in fulfilling grocery orders. If he makes two mistakes a week, he gets no bonus.

He hasn't missed the bonus for 3 years.

The interesting comment he made about the very large warehouse that he works in is that virtually the whole crew is Mexican or other immigrants. He's told me that long-term citizens have applied there and started there, but they just couldn't keep up with the work and work ethic that was required to make any real money. He said most of them don't last a month.

I know this doesn't directly relate to the current Defender situation, however it does relate to warehouse work. They are not unionized by the way, although there have been numerous attempts to do so, the workers are not interested.

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Sounds nice he's doing well. Its pretty hard for me to see how he's doing the work of 4-5 others (based on the 70k figure). They also likely feel less pressure to unionize due to the benefits afforded by Canadian employment law.

As you'll note, many on this forum are not only fearful of unions but your socialist type employment laws. What about health insurance? Bet it's a lot better at the warehouse in Canada.


How do you guys afford to keep the lights on up there and send 50% of the cruisers to the Bahamas. My libertarian American friends just reckon its because its so cold there Canada, nothing to do with economics. Strength of the middle class, etc.
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Old 09-09-2015, 19:06   #81
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
Sounds nice he's doing well. Its pretty hard for me to see how he's doing the work of 4-5 others (based on the 70k figure). They also likely feel less pressure to unionize due to the benefits afforded by Canadian employment law.

As you'll note, many on this forum are not only fearful of unions but your socialist type employment laws. What about health insurance? Bet it's a lot better at the warehouse in Canada.


How do you guys afford to keep the lights on up there and send 50% of the cruisers to the Bahamas. My libertarian American friends just reckon its because its so cold there Canada, nothing to do with economics. Strength of the middle class, etc.
Gosh, I spend half my time at my condo and sailboat in Florida. We only have to work half the year here to afford Defender's product prices.; )

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Old 09-09-2015, 19:44   #82
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

As for this statement, "A smart employee wants to be in business with the boss, see the company prosper AND get a fair share of the rewards. The only way that happens is with a Union."

Hmm. No. If an employee wants a share of the rewards (the profits of the company), he or she should buy stock in the company. In other words, take some financial risk. The owner(s) put up the money and assume the risk and get the profits or the losses. That is called capitalism. Workers work for wages. If the company prospers, and the owner offers a bonus, "good on him." That is a nice guy. But no obligation. Wonder if the worker would chip in if the company lost money?

Many companies do have so-called profit sharing programs where workers can buy company stock, but such purchases are voluntary and made after wages are paid. The worker is not forced to buy company stock nor accept it as part of his wage. By purchasing the stock, regardless of whether there is a union or not, the worker now has assumed part of the financial risk of ownership and is entitled to a proportionate share of the rewards or losses.[/QUOTE]

Stock? Not sure if defender is paying dividends, but I doubt it. Profits in the stock market are OPM (other peoples money) not revenue that the company earned. Collective bargaining is a healthy part of a "Free Market". It does not however comport with "heads I win, tails you lose" economics. Collective bargaining is also legal and a Right in most places in the USA. Management has zero prior claim to retention of profit. Just ask their competitors.

I need to buy a new tender and have been planning to buy it from Defender. I hope they settle the issue in a manner conducive to stable labor relations and continue to be profitable in the future.

I hope the Mod's will allow us to respectfully disagree since we would all like to see Defender remain in business.
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Old 09-09-2015, 20:23   #83
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
If its $13 an hour now, that's a big increase over a few years back. WM has s lot of retired folks working in the stores or people with other income streams all working their to get what used to be an excellent discount. There are also some folks that start their young and the men generally become store managers or district managers if they work hard. Most of the women dong seem to het promoted much unless they have retail management experience outside WM. Guess WM can only teach management to males.

I usually don't agree with much that you say, but I agree 100% on this post!


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Old 10-09-2015, 00:33   #84
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

Hmm. This thread caused me to NOT make purchases yesterday at Defender. I used to be able to order from them on Sunday night or early Monday, and get it by Thursday in time for the weekend. Not anymore. This is the last straw with them. I had no idea they were unionized. See, I'm a small business owner. People who have never run a business have no freaking clue what the risks, headaches and hours are. And unions just make a business less competitive.


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Old 10-09-2015, 00:38   #85
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Defender warehouse workers on strike

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Originally Posted by bstreep View Post
Hmm. This thread caused me to NOT make purchases yesterday at Defender. I used to be able to order from them on Sunday night or early Monday, and get it by Thursday in time for the weekend. Not anymore. This is the last straw with them. I had no idea they were unionized. See, I'm a small business owner. People who have never run a business have no freaking clue what the risks, headaches and hours are. And unions just make a business less competitive.


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So your choice is not order from them to make their life that much harder them? Wow! I suspect a small business owner with zero chance of unionization. Holy cow I just typed the previous sentence without looking at your profile! Real estate appraisal, the unions are all over that! How have you not had to defend yourself? Ever been involved with a business where the unions insinuate themselves? Get the employees to vote them in? I suspect not not in the highly unionized profession of real estate appraisal. And your solution is what? The idiots at defender allowed them in? What is your point?

I ordered from them today (see post 73) and UPS, not defender says it will be here tomorrow.

I have run my own business for over 15 years, no chance of unions, but all the other risks you mention are real. Before that - management in manufacturing companies - unions can't be avoided.


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Old 10-09-2015, 04:27   #86
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, DCF.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:50   #87
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

Any employee can quit, at anytime, without notice. Should not the system be the same for both the employee and the employer?

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It's interesting that it's called a "Right to Work" state, when it really means an employer can fire anyone, at anytime, without cause.

1984 newspeak.




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Old 10-09-2015, 09:08   #88
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

I was referring to the terminology.

If it's a "Right to Work" state, are those that can't find a job having that right violated?

Just like the "Clear Skies Act" of 2003 allowed more air pollution, the terminology is sometimes misleading.


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Old 10-09-2015, 09:20   #89
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

Also, if you're saying the power position is equal, when an employee can quit and an employer can fire, I respectfully disagree.

I've seen hundreds of people line up for a single job opportunity, hoping they would be chosen.
Outside of professional sports, I've never seen hundreds, or even dozens, of companies line up to compete for a single prospective employee. Certainly not for an employee that will be earning $15 per hour.

The employer has the majority of the power in the average employer/employee relationship. Some abuse that power.


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Old 10-09-2015, 23:55   #90
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Re: Defender warehouse workers on strike

Yes, jman, my choice is to not order from them. And yes, in a prior life, I had several opportunities to deal with unions, specifically it United Steel Workers. They preferred to shut down a plant and put 100s of employees out of work, rather than be competitive. It was stupid.

Not sure where you got any idea appraisers were unionized.

If I have a choice, I will always choose the non-Union shop. And like I said, their service levels to ME have declined.



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