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Old 01-11-2011, 06:23   #121
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I read this whole thread (very fast) and still don't understand the conditions that required the abandoning of the boat.

Doesn't look like they were sinking!

Is it just because they were sick of being tossed around?

Was it really worth the danger to themselves and the resue boat to take them off what looks to be a seaworthy boat?

I saw something about losing their life raft; who would ever consider getting off the sailboat and into a inner tube in the shown conditions.
I have to agree. Nothing that I have seen or read would have made me want to abandon the vessel. Yes I know I am armchair quarterbacking, wasn't there and don't know what was happening at the scene but from all available information sure didn't look like time to leave for me.

I have looked at my own photos of big waves and how much smaller they appear than they were at the time but even allowing for that and some lee effects from the cruise ship it still didn't look that bad on the youtube videos. The boat even with no sails up and occasionally beam on to the seas was not rolling that badly.

Bottom line, everyone has their own level of tolerance, ability and desire to deal with adverse conditions. Like Clint said "A man's got to know his limitations" and what is OK for some is beyond the limits for others.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:31   #122
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I read this whole thread (very fast) and still don't understand the conditions that required the abandoning of the boat.

Doesn't look like they were sinkng!

Is it just because they were sick of being tossed around?

Was it really worth the danger to themselves and the resue boat to take them off what looks to be a seaworthy boat?

I saw something about losing their life raft; who would ever consider getting off the sailboat and into a inner tube in the shown conditions.
When the water is deep enough in the main cabin (say beyond knee deep), you have no idea where it's coming from and it's coming in pretty fast...you'll jump into iceberg/shark infested water let alone a liferaft if a helicopter lowers a rescue basket into it! Been there done that (from the helo thankfully!)
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:32   #123
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

My bet is sea sickness. Look forward to more info...
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:54   #124
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

It looked more dangerous "jumping ship" than staying put to me. Obviously not enough information yet (if ever).

Glad everyone is alright though.

And yes, some of us do realize the current "state" of affairs.

Winds and opposing currents suck. Someone should write a law huh?
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:51   #125
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Just to say thanks for some of your replies while I waited to hear about my sister...Everyone is home safe and sound. Let it be noted that the rescue team from the Gem are amazing people. The captain of the GEM explained to my sister that the rescue was as difficult as in the movie: A perfect storm. Had they not been able to secure the rescue boat when they did, all would have been abandonned. (5 from the rescue team and 5 from the Sanctuary: total of 10 people). Also had the distress call gone out an hour later, The Gem would not have attempted the rescue.
Upon reboarding the Gem, one rescue member collapsed from exhaustion.
So there you have it in a nutshell. Thanks again...you were so helpfull with your comments.
Keep safe.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:55   #126
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I have to agree. Nothing that I have seen or read would have made me want to abandon the vessel. Yes I know I am armchair quarterbacking, . . .
Bottom line, everyone has their own level of tolerance, ability and desire to deal with adverse conditions. Like Clint said "A man's got to know his limitations" and what is OK for some is beyond the limits for others.
There is nothing wrong with "Monday morning quarterbacking" or discussing after an incident or event - how would I have handled that situation? Such discussions are very valuable so long as they spur you to think about such situations in your boat.

- - From the two videos, it appears that the sailboat was not large, that is, it was about the size of the cruise ship tender, which if you have been in and around cruise ships during their required "boat drills" - means the sailboat was somewhere in the mid 30's to 40 ft range (+/- a little).

- - Also the seas where, as others described from the videos, not excessive, although they did appear to be confused. Which goes along with the Gulf Stream Eddy information posted by Hud3. But the phrase "excessive" is rather relative to your boat size. Confused seas of moderate size to a small sailboat can be a whole different situation than to a larger boat.

- - In the earlier USCG video it appeared that the sailboat was under reefed jib and no mainsail. IMHO, that is not a good sail plan for the conditions they were in. That sail configuration would not help to stabilize the boat motion but would allow the excessive rolling and pitching. All of which adds up to my opinion that - like other posters mentioned - they were experiencing excessive motion sickness which can be fatal.

- - Of course, we have very limited information time wise from the two short videos, so there may be other considerations leading up to the decision to abandon the boat.

- - So I see several factors leading up to the result - first, the boat was too small for the journey during that time of year. And -maybe- the crew was too inexperienced in heavy ocean tactics to be able to effectively deal with the conditions they found so the result was to abandon the ship.

- - This happens frequently during weather events in the Atlantic especially on the routes between New England to Bermuda and also the route from Norfolk to the Virgins.

- - Getting "experience" in open ocean conditions is a double edged sword - first you are not born with such skills so only "on the job training" is available to get them. And then you have to be lucky or resourceful enough to survive your "experiences."
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:52   #127
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

I imagine with sea sickness it's quite easy to put aside the dangers of being removed, or possibly they didn't know how dangerous it could be. Speculation won't really get that done.

I know someone who was out in some rough weather in the pacific with his wife. She was ill, it was pretty rough and she wanted to call for help. The boat was fine though and he kept insisting they were better off riding it out. She made the call anyway, a freighter rerouted to take them off. She died when she lost her grip on the cargo net they had to climb up. He made it and so did the boat, salvaged after the storm.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:57   #128
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pirate Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
I imagine with sea sickness it's quite easy to put aside the dangers of being removed, or possibly they didn't know how dangerous it could be. Speculation won't really get that done.

I know someone who was out in some rough weather in the pacific with his wife. She was ill, it was pretty rough and she wanted to call for help. The boat was fine though and he kept insisting they were better off riding it out. She made the call anyway, a freighter rerouted to take them off. She died when she lost her grip on the cargo net they had to climb up. He made it and so did the boat, salvaged after the storm.
There's a 'Moral' in there somewhere.....
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:41   #129
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

No truer words were said, I humbly submit.
"- - Getting "experience" in open ocean conditions is a double edged sword - first you are not born with such skills so only "on the job training" is available to get them. And then you have to be lucky or resourceful enough to survive your "experiences."[/QUOTE]

I just received an auto-email form Hank Schmidt about the NARC Rally leaving Newport for Bermuda and then on to St. Martins. I was going to write, "There is no need for inexperienced sailors to go it alone," but I don't know anything about the crew or Captain on Sanctuary. For all we know they are hard core experienced sailors, and we don't yet know anything about them.
That said, even if you're a go-it-alone/do-it-yourself type, this is one journey where the group support may have been helpful. Three group options discussed recently might have helped prevent their need to abandon ship: The Salty Dog Rally, The Caribbean 1500 and now the NARC Rally.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:45   #130
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
- - Getting "experience" in open ocean conditions is a double edged sword - first you are not born with such skills so only "on the job training" is available to get them. And then you have to be lucky or resourceful enough to survive your "experiences."
A sailor doesn't need to make a passage in order to learn how to heave to.

Even the simplest of skills such as setting a drogue or rigging the emergency rudder should be practiced in calm conditions so that you at least know what tools are required. Do you need a shackle key to attach your drogue? Best to find that out before the storm. Do you need a new tether attachment point to set your emergency rudder? It might be good to figure that out before you're in 18' seas.

How many forum members realize that you've got to tether your life raft prior to inflating it? So where's the tether point on your boat? And how are you going to cut yourself away once the mothership goes down?
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:59   #131
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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A sailor doesn't need to make a passage in order to learn how to heave to.

Even the simplest of skills such as setting a drogue or rigging the emergency rudder should be practiced in calm conditions so that you at least know what tools are required. Do you need a shackle key to attach your drogue? Best to find that out before the storm. Do you need a new tether attachment point to set your emergency rudder? It might be good to figure that out before you're in 18' seas.

How many forum members realize that you've got to tether your life raft prior to inflating it? So where's the tether point on your boat? And how are you going to cut yourself away once the mothership goes down?
And this is why one has to have soooo many hours at sea to even get a six pack license.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:03   #132
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Even the simplest of skills such as setting a drogue or rigging the emergency rudder should be practiced in calm conditions so that you at least know what tools are required....
How many forum members realize that you've got to tether your life raft prior to inflating it? So where's the tether point on your boat? And how are you going to cut yourself away once the mothership goes down?
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:08   #133
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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That said, even if you're a go-it-alone/do-it-yourself type, this is one journey where the group support may have been helpful. Three group options discussed recently might have helped prevent their need to abandon ship: The Salty Dog Rally, The Caribbean 1500 and now the NARC Rally.
Apart from the moral support on the Radio (and some "advice" based on incomplete information, close the hatches? ) I don't see what any other sailing vessel could have done that didn't pose a greater risk than staying onboard.

I sure as f#ck would not be coming alongside, nor putting my vessel or crew at risk If they can make it accross in a dinghy or liferaft then I would pick them up - those that survive 2 stupids don't make a clever .............and would stand by as long as possible in case she did sink and folk were in the water.

At that point the survivors might be in for some dissapointment - still on a small bouncing boat, except not so many home comforts as a 40 footer .......and depending on my own crew onboard I'd then be tempted to get a tow on the abandoned vessel, at least enough to report I had ......and then wait for the weather to abate (she heaves to very nicely ).........before towing my prize homeward (I appreciate she won't automatically be mine, but should be a good $50k in salvage from Ins Co). Rescued Crew can leave anytime a better option arrives - if they don't like that, they can leave before
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:21   #134
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
IIRC, CG had this problem with skipper in "Perfect Storm" incident. Can't recall outcome.
He was forced to abandon his vessel against his will.

I think generally the policy is, if it's for health reasons, they will extract the victim. But if the call is for safety issues and the vessel is in danger, they take everyone.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:48   #135
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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There's a 'Moral' in there somewhere.....
I dunno about that - but would kinda f#ck with yer head .........for the rest of yer days

Hell, mine was plugged into stuff from the Starship Enterprise and had access to any spare parts needed, even if that meant being "proactive" .......and afterwards I was still looking for folk to chop up with a Machete (it's what she would have wanted - honestly. and would have been "culturally appropriate"). and I still regret that there was no one who even came close to being blameworthy. and that even with the bar set low (I had always figured she wouldn't go by natural causes - so that end of things would be kinda self fulfilling Win or lose don't matter - some things just have to be done "Play up, play up and play the game" - but I digress even further)......but life is full of ironies and nearest person at fault is me (real and imagined), and that's been hard enough to deal with - let alone having the prospect of a lifetime of 2nd guessing the decision to send a sick wife up a cargo net, mid ocean
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