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Old 07-11-2011, 18:25   #316
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Quarter Boy View Post
Contrary to some speculation Sanctuary was not in the lee of the GEM when the crew rescue was effected. She lay to windward
This'll be interesting. I looked at the earlier video and I thought it looked like the sailboat was to leeward of the cruise ship.

As to all the folks going on about the weather and the course, this is a well-trodden route to the Virgins at the correct time of year to make it. You will not get to Bermuda before a low or two catch you, and you deal with it. You must cross the Gulf Stream. However, it is not even close to an unusual trip to make. Tens, probably hundreds, of little boats do it every year. In fact, there are a number of races from the east coast to Bermuda - Marion/B every other year, Newport/B every other year, Charleston/B every other year, Annapolis, etc. If you don't do it that way and your mast is too big for the intracoastal, you have to deal with Hatteras and the Gulf Stream and ultimately making easting against the trades. I would bet fewer boats do that from the northeast coast.
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Old 07-11-2011, 20:16   #317
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

I've made the trip down five times and looked at a lot of weather forecasts while doing it. I would say that it is better to jump down the coast to Beaufort and leave from there than going offshore further north. This time of year it seems that the fronts lose most of their punch below 30 degrees north, so my strategy would be to find a window which would let me get across the stream and below 30 before the next front.

Of course, a lot depends on how lucky you are with the forecast--they aren't too accurate after 3-4 days. The first time down, Herb told me to go east for 3 days, then told me to go west, as there was a rapidly developing low in my path. We saw 50 knots for a while, but missed the worst of it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:39   #318
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Quarter Boy
Contrary to some speculation Sanctuary was not in the lee of the GEM when the crew rescue was effected. She lay to windward
You were there, and I wasn't, Quarter Boy, but from the wave patterns in this photo, it sure appears to me that the lifeboat is returning upwind, though at a bit of an angle.

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Old 08-11-2011, 06:13   #319
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Remember the "white caps" form on the lee side of the wave (downwind side) as the tops of the wave are blown off the wave.

But anyway, this year has not been a good one for venturing out into the Atlantic. Currently the Carib1500 is being held/delayed in Hampton, VA for a few days due to the extratropical storm "Sean" which is currently right on the rhumb line to the Islands. They have about 62 boats listed in this year's event. http://www.worldcruising.com/carib1500/entries.aspx
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:34   #320
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Remember the "white caps" form on the lee side of the wave (downwind side) as the tops of the wave are blown off the wave.
Right. They look to be moving away from the picture taker to me; foam on the back side of the swells left from the breaking crests.

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But anyway, this year has not been a good one for venturing out into the Atlantic. Currently the Carib1500 is being held/delayed in Hampton, VA for a few days due to the extratropical storm "Sean" which is currently right on the rhumb line to the Islands. They have about 62 boats listed in this year's event. Entry List for World Cruising Club: Caribbean 1500
Active thread here: 2011 Caribbean 1500
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:56   #321
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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You can upload AVI to Youtube and paste the link here. They make it pretty easy, and have walk-through instructions. AVI is a pretty large format though, so you might want to find a free program to convert it to MPEG or something smaller, just to save upload time.
Thanks for the info. I am presently traveling and using my laptop. Once home I will look for a conversion program.

QB
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Old 08-11-2011, 13:12   #322
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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However, it is not even close to an unusual trip to make. Tens, probably hundreds, of little boats do it every year. In fact, there are a number of races from the east coast to Bermuda - Marion/B every other year, Newport/B every other year, Charleston/B every other year, Annapolis, etc.
If tens, or even hundreds of little boats make this trip each year, and there is at least one, and usually more than one, horror stories each year, then the odds aren't too terrific for avoiding serious trouble. I should have said it appears that this route in October/November seems to be pretty risky. The races you mention, I think, occur in late May or June, which seems, at least, to be a much safer window for the run from the East Coast to Bermuda.

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I've made the trip down five times and looked at a lot of weather forecasts while doing it. I would say that it is better to jump down the coast to Beaufort and leave from there than going offshore further north. This time of year it seems that the fronts lose most of their punch below 30 degrees north, so my strategy would be to find a window which would let me get across the stream and below 30 before the next front.

Of course, a lot depends on how lucky you are with the forecast--they aren't too accurate after 3-4 days. The first time down, Herb told me to go east for 3 days, then told me to go west, as there was a rapidly developing low in my path. We saw 50 knots for a while, but missed the worst of it.
If you left the East Coast around Hilton Head, SC, and made course for the Windward Passage, as Virgintino suggests, you would be across the Gulf Stream and south of 30 degrees within about 200 miles, or less than two days.

I don't know. I haven't done this route personally before, but am considering making the trip. I did an offshore passage from Newport to Miami in late October once, and I do remember the weather being rough until we were south of Hatteras. Does anyone else have any thoughts or experiences they'd like to share? This route through the Windward Passage and up the south coast of Hispaniola looks interesting. Has anyone done it?
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Old 08-11-2011, 13:31   #323
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Observations on being Hove to in Heavy Weather: Launching and Recovery of Ship's Boats [ A Ships Perspective ]

Exchanges with Richard Woodman: Elder Brother of Trinity House; Master Mariner (FG)
noted Nautical Historian & Author

************************************************** ***************************
From: David Garside
To: Richard Woodman
Dear Sir,
I recently purchased a copy of "Fiddlers Green" and am slowly, on account of the minuscule print and my less than 20/20 eyesight, making way through a most enjoyable read.

Your account, of Phemius's waltz in and about a hurricane's centre (pages 115-120); Of the trials of her crew, their drawn out struggle to stave off disaster and the spirited persistence of her Master, is outstanding. However, in crediting his ship's salvation to the soothing effects of oil poured through the latrines, I do wonder if credit was given to the wrong phenomena.

The SS Arabian Prince, a small 3 hold 10 knot Mediterranean trader, whilst en-route to Malta suffered an engine breakdown somewhere north of Cape Bon. Winds at the time were gale force and as we lost steering the vessel hove to with the wind almost directly abeam.

Initially heavy seas breaking against our starboard side landed green water on deck and sent heavy spray sheeting high into the air. Then slowly, under the press of wind, we commenced a steady set to leeward whilst the displaced water, drawing under the keel, roiled to the surface.

As we drifted downwind this up-welling water, now extending well to windward, served as a wave and swell dampner. Breaking seas which reached into the disturbance simply melted away and the ship's motion was greatly eased.

Oil slicks do not drift upwind and it is very doubtful a deep drafted vessel would set to leeward more quickly than would a surface oil slick. This being the case it's difficult to see how oil trickled through a ship's latrine could have made it's way to windward.

On the other hand a curtain of vertically disturbed water, equal in depth to a ship's draft, is a most formidable barrier to any horizontally propagating surface wave.

Sincerely yours
David Garside

************************************************** ****************************
Dear David,
Sorry about the small print and the typos. I also attach a couple of significant corrections to Fiddler's Green. Re your point. you may well be right.
In the event, as far as the book was concerned I was keen to rely upon Captain Evans's own account for purposes of historical verification.

However, like you I have observed this many times, first when I was serving in Ocean Weather Ships in the North Atlantic and we lay a-hull and drifted to leeward at 4 knots. I wrote a paper for the Nautical Institute some years ago in which I described techniques for lowering boats in bad weather, having had many years of experience thereof in Trinity House Vessels when servicing aids to navigation.

Often there was a better smooth to windward than to leeward and I never ever lowered a boat on the leeward side with my ship beam on, the poor boat cannot escape from the ship's side and can end under the lee anchor.
Best wishes,
Richard

************************************************** ****************************
Norwegian Gem, unlike Arabian Prince, had full control of the situation, She is fitted with three 2.4 MW bow thrusters and twin 19.5 MW Azipod (swivelling) propulsion units. Her Master, even when hove to, can head his ship anyway he wishes.

Faced with a madly confused sea & swell and a rising 35 knot (or so) wind he chose a median heading. Keeping wind and sea on his starboard side, with his ship setting to leeward as the wind (for the main part) dictated.

Norwegian Gem: At 294 meters LOA, 32.2 meters Beam and 8.3 meters Draft, and assuming a block coefficient of 0.8, displaces about 63,000 metric tons. When setting to leeward (at 1 knot) a large percentage of that weight (of water) is forced under her keel every minute of the drift. The resulting windward side upwelling simply obliterates all wave trains and much of the incoming swell.

Note: Drifting sideways at 1 knot Norwegian Gem traverses 57.5 times her own beam width each hour - approximately 1 beam width per minute.

As and when I am able to submit my lifeboat recovery video you will clearly see the resultant vertical disturbance, roiling and boiling to the surface. The absence of waves and the greatly reduced incoming swell. In the last moments of the video one can also see the side kick of the forward thruster.

AND, for those who cling to the notion that Sanctuary was to leeward of the Gem the sea and swell motion, relative to the Gem, is also readily observed.
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Old 08-11-2011, 13:34   #324
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Tia Bu View Post
I did an offshore passage from Newport to Miami in late October once, and I do remember the weather being rough until we were south of Hatteras. Does anyone else have any thoughts or experiences they'd like to share? This route through the Windward Passage and up the south coast of Hispaniola looks interesting. Has anyone done it?
Sounds like a good new thread.
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Old 08-11-2011, 14:00   #325
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

I sailed from Jamaica along the south coast of Hispaniola in early 2002. Stopping at Pedernalas and Santo Domingo. I found no marinas or toursit attractions but it has a beautiful shoreline when viewed from a bus.
Don't try to sail north of Isla Beata indeed swing well south as the current is very strong whenever the water is shallower.
Except for parts of Santo Domingo, which depends on money from tourist, everyone else was in training to emulate the corruption found in their government.
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Old 08-11-2011, 17:00   #326
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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If tens, or even hundreds of little boats make this trip each year, and there is at least one, and usually more than one, horror stories each year, then the odds aren't too terrific for avoiding serious trouble. I should have said it appears that this route in October/November seems to be pretty risky. The races you mention, I think, occur in late May or June, which seems, at least, to be a much safer window for the run from the East Coast to Bermuda.
Those don't seem like such bad odds to me. You have to avoid hurricane season, which is June/July - October. The races that go May/June are before the season, and most return straightaway. If you want to get to the Carib for cruising and you don't want to broil or be there for hurricane season, you want to go in the fall/winter. Then you leave in Oct and if you don't want to dawdle, you go offshore. Its really pretty common for northerners. You seem to be in South Carolina, so you'd be best taking i65. I've never looked into Virgintino's route, but it looks promising.
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Old 08-11-2011, 17:25   #327
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Good odds if 1 in 100 boat is a wreck. Even 3 in every boats is good. That ratio is similar or less then the chance of meeting aperson with aids in DC. Random sailing is safer then random sex. I am going to go have some sailing
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Old 08-11-2011, 17:27   #328
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

huh... there must be something in there about safe sex and safe sailing and reducing risks....
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Old 08-11-2011, 17:33   #329
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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The best time to make this passage is May to June, prior to hurricane season or late October to early November which is just after hurricane season. Of course hurricanes do not know they have a season and it is possible that you could be unlucky. This is one of the risks of this route.
-- Virgintino via Bermuda

...and what I've always understood.

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Old 08-11-2011, 17:33   #330
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Good odds if 1 in 100 boat is a wreck. Even 3 in every boats is good. That ratio is similar or less then the chance of meeting aperson with aids in DC. Random sailing is safer then random sex. I am going to go have some sailing

wow, I find myself kind of conflicted
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