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Old 07-11-2011, 11:17   #301
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
QB, you fail to understand.
Critical review of anything is met with hysteria, often followed by admonishment from the mods.
Say nice things, offer smiley faces, learn nothing.
This is a good place to remind everyone that you actually can say ALMOST anything here so long as you do it respectfully and politely. This thread is a pretty good example of that. Lots of critisism, very little moderation.

You would be surprised to hear how rarely it is the CONTENT that gets the reports pouring in and the following moderation, and how often it is the poor choice of tone and words. Or tasteless image selection...

Everyone knows that in this medium it is very difficult to ununderstand the subtle nuances. What felt like flippant or wry often reads as nasty or rude. Happens to me all the time...

Keep it from happening to you by reading one last time before posting.
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Old 07-11-2011, 11:55   #302
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Quarter Boy View Post
A resume all interested parties might benefit from by perusing.

Google "Thierry Simon yacht deliveries" then hit on "THIERRY SIMON - Canada | LinkedIn"

In a work history stretching from 1988 to 2008 there is no mention of seafaring and his MCA Master of Yacht listing is dated as recently as August 2011 !
I can guarantee you that my linkedin profile doesn't even start to deal with my real life experience in non-business or work related areas over decades. There is significant expertise I have that you cannot extract out of reading my profile.

This is a canard, and as someone else said, why the mischief? I see speculations and conclusions being drawn and the only thing that speaks to any direct input is that you have sea experience, a masters certificate (according to you) and happened to be on the Norwegian Gem at the same time.

Unless you neglected to tell us, did you speak to Captain Thierry Simon, who unlike most of us, including you, posted under his real name?

He may have made errors or he may not have, (I certainly have no qualifications to judge either way), but I see no benefit in what you posted that adds or can be used as a learning opportunity.

I DO hope to see posts that I, and others, can utilize to learn to either avoid such a situation, or what could have been done to mitigate it.

So far I have learned that:
  • Beneteau's are built much tougher then many on CF give them credit (MarkJ I suspect would agree).

  • that weather windows are extremely important, and just as important is to consider the prevailing weather at a particular time of year in an area you are sailing through.

  • it is desireable to have at least some crew on board that have competancy to relief you at the helm (not depending on the captain as the only competent crew)

  • as much as possible, minimize things like dinks hanging on davits, and that anything on deck be secured as much as possible, including liferafts obviously.

  • watch your electrical power level - in emergencies there needs to be enough to contact the outside world.

  • secure interior objects as much as possible to avoid them becoming missiles. Re-evaluate how floor boards etc. are secured.

  • emergency equipment, and knowing how to use it, especially something like a Jordan Series Drogue, needs to be considered as a virtually necessity to mitigate storm encounters that are unavoidable.

  • do not depend on any one piece of equipment; engines fail, electronics can fail, power can be lost. Backup works only so much, and at some point, one needs to call for assistance. Make sure you have the ability to make that call, and make it before lives are further endangered.

  • no matter what the situation is, if you talk about it on a forum, there is an element who will second guess you or jump down your throat for decisions or actions you took

Perhaps those more knowledgeable than myself may have learned or observed other positive teachings, or perhaps they may suggest some of my observations should be common knowledge.

What matters is that the collective we can and should learn from this, and any other severe incidents.
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Old 07-11-2011, 11:57   #303
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

I commend the captain for getting his crew to safety and living to sail another day. One implicit implication of much of the discussion seems to be that the loss of the boat was due to one or more errors. I don't have enough blue water experience to determine the best alternative courses of action and have (mostly) enjoyed reading the perspectives. I do have enough life experience to believe that sometimes sh!t just happens and you have to deal with it. Whether the alternatives discussed would have made a difference is food for supposition, but we might also acknowledge that crossing oceans has inherent risks and it's good to accept them before embarking. A well-prepared crew and a well built and well-equipped boat will mitigate some of those risks but won't eliminate them.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:20   #304
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Oh? Let's throw out some test questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I can guarantee you that my linkedin profile doesn't even start to deal with my real life experience in non-business or work related areas over decades. There is significant expertise I have that you cannot extract out of reading my profile.

This is a canard, and as someone else said, why the mischief? I see speculations and conclusions being drawn and the only thing that speaks to any direct input is that you have sea experience, a masters certificate (according you you) and happened to be on the Norwegian Gem at the same time.

Unless you neglected to tell us, did you speak to Captain Thierry Simon, who unlike most of us, including you, posted under his real name?

He may have made errors or he may not have, (I certainly have no qualifications to judge either way), but I see no benefit in what you posted that adds or can be used as a learning opportunity.

I DO hope to see posts that I, and others, can utilize to learn to either avoid such a situation, or what could have been done to mitigate it.

So far I have learned that:
  • Beneteau's are built much tougher then many on CF give them credit (MarkJ I suspect would agree).
  • Please advise the exact scantling this boat was built to. Rigging as a percent of max righting moment, hull panel stiffness, hull to deck flange size and connection methods, number of keel bolts size and pattern of such, size of rudder tube and associated weldment, quadrant size including cables and turning gear and attachment methods, through hulls (every Bene I've been on uses spin on skin fittings with ball valve) window installation methodology (framed/unframed), hatch installation (though bolted or screwed)...we can go on... CE A is a simple laundry list with no real reference to scantlings.
  • that weather windows are extremely important, and just as important is to consider the prevailing weather at a particular time of year in an area you are sailing through.
  • The only weather window you control is the weather you leave in. You will be hit by storms this time of the year, they are to be planned for.
  • it is desireable to have at least some crew on board that have competancy to relief you as captain.
  • Isn't that the reponsibility of the guy who was hired to move the boat?
  • as much as possible, minimize things like dinks hanging on davits, and that anything on deck be secured as much as possible, including liferafts obviously.
  • Like the dink lashed to the deck? Looked like it would be carried away with any breaking seas.
  • watch your electrical power level - in emergencies there needs to be enough to contact the outside world.
  • Exactly what was the burning smell when running the engine? Was it a belt? Was it electrical? Was it a lack of oil? Was it a lack of coolant? Since they were able to start the engine why could they not trace down the smell and make repair?
  • secure interior objects as much as possible to avoid them becoming missiles. Re-evaluate how floor boards etc. are secured.
  • Don't you think gear should be secure prior to leaving the dock? what delivery skipper leaves with a green crew and aboat not yet ready to rumble?
  • emergency equipment, and knowing how to use it, especially something like a Jordan Series Drogue, needs to be considered as virtually necessity to mitigate storm encounters that are unavoidable.
  • Drag a fricken anchor if you have to slow the boat down, all that loose gear laying around must be good for something. Tie it to the back of the boat?
  • do not depend on any one piece of equipment; engines fail, electronics can fail, power can be lost. Backup works only so much, and at some point, one needs to call for assistance. Make sure you have the ability to make that call, and make it before live's are further endangered.
  • The engine smells so you punch the "come get me button".
  • no matter what the situation is, if you talk about it on a forum, there is an element who will second guess you or jump down your throat for decisions or actions you took
  • Maybe these question should be asked and answered by the yacht owner, crew and delivery captian prior to leaving the dock so we don't have to second geuss them?
Perhaps those more knowledgeable than myself may have learned or observed other positive teachings, or perhaps they may suggest some of my observations should be common knowledge.

What matters is that the collective we can and should learn from this, and any other severe incidents.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:33   #305
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Oh, so we are already finished with whipping that Norwegian boy? My gosh, so, whom shall we whip next?

;-)))
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:09   #306
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Here is your next victim:

CHEMINEES POUJOULAT HAVE SET OFF THEIR DISTRESS BEACON
Last night when they were sailing 130 miles north of the Azores, the crew of Cheminees Poujoulat - Bernard Stamm and Jean Francois Cuzon - informed race direction of the Transat Jacques Vabre race from Le Havre to Costa Rica that they have a significant leak on their IMOCA Open 60.
After analyis of their current situation in communication with race director Jean Maurel, they have triggered their distress beacon.
The signal was received by the CROSS Griz Nez which relayed information to MRCC Punta Delgada in the Azores. Help procedures were immediately activated and a helicopter took off at 1050hrs CET/0950hrs UTC/GMT to recover the crew from the yacht which was positioned approximately 230 miles to the north of Punta Delgada on the Azores island of San Miguel.


Inexperienced crew?? Hell No
Beneteau?? No
In a North Atlantic Storm?? Yes
Taking on water?? Yes
More bad weather coming?? Yes

I agree with both decisions.
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:18   #307
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Boy, it seems there's some terrible story every year about a boat (or boats) taking that offshore route from the U.S. east coast to the Eastern Caribbean. I'm beginning to think the odds of successfully completing that voyage are smaller than we'd all like to think. I mean how many boats can truly be attempting that route each year, and how many of these horror stories do we read? There seems to be a tendency in this and other discussions to whistle past the graveyard, saying, in effect, "Well, that couldn't (or didn't) happen to me because I would do (or did) it differently."

Yet it seems the horror stories happen not-infrequently with experienced skippers and pretty well-found boats. After all, Joshua Slocum disappeared in Spray along this route at that time of year (if I remember correctly).

Just a few months ago, I discovered this write-up of an alternative route down the east coast to South Carolina, offshore to Hispaniola, and along the south coasts of Hispaniola and Puerto Rico: Free Cruising Guide.

I wonder if that wouldn't be a more prudent and practical route for this voyage? Any opinions on that?
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:39   #308
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Oh? Let's throw out some test questions.
Like I said, I was listing the things that I either learned or had re-enforced.

It seems by the nature of your responses that you generally agree these were good things to keep top of mind.

Maybe in time I can graduate from being a neophyte
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:49   #309
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Here is your next victim:
Please note they talked to the shore first, then pressed the button. I bet now they will try to save the boat.

I hope they will make it. They have one the the new K. boats that I hoped to see in VG and perhaps win.

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Old 07-11-2011, 13:53   #310
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pirate Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Here is your next victim:

CHEMINEES POUJOULAT HAVE SET OFF THEIR DISTRESS BEACON
Last night when they were sailing 130 miles north of the Azores, the crew of Cheminees Poujoulat - Bernard Stamm and Jean Francois Cuzon - informed race direction of the Transat Jacques Vabre race from Le Havre to Costa Rica that they have a significant leak on their IMOCA Open 60.
After analyis of their current situation in communication with race director Jean Maurel, they have triggered their distress beacon.
The signal was received by the CROSS Griz Nez which relayed information to MRCC Punta Delgada in the Azores. Help procedures were immediately activated and a helicopter took off at 1050hrs CET/0950hrs UTC/GMT to recover the crew from the yacht which was positioned approximately 230 miles to the north of Punta Delgada on the Azores island of San Miguel.


Inexperienced crew?? Hell No
Beneteau?? No
In a North Atlantic Storm?? Yes
Taking on water?? Yes
More bad weather coming?? Yes

I agree with both decisions.
They been airlifted by Helichoptor from their life raft... don't know if the boats sunk though... they have not said.
They did have wave estimates at 6-7 metres
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Old 07-11-2011, 15:46   #311
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by Ironhorse74 View Post
To quote Captain Orion "The shock of the sea waves caused structural damage to the hull and possibly delaminating the fiberglass."
To me the possibility of hull damage would be the most important consideration in requesting rescue. The next wave could take that boat down in an instant and contributing factors like potential loss of communications and no life raft would be additional factors for calling for help. The weakest point of any voyage is the crew, but in this situation the confidence in the boat staying afloat would be my overriding concern.
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Old 07-11-2011, 16:11   #312
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

We still don't know what the hull damage was or where it was etc. Would think that if the crew was keeping up with it on the hand pump that the rest would be tearing that boat apart looking for the source.
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Old 07-11-2011, 16:24   #313
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

Quote:
Beneteau's are built much tougher then many on CF give them credit (MarkJ I suspect would agree).
Please advise the exact scantling this boat was built to. Rigging as a percent of max righting moment, hull panel stiffness, hull to deck flange size and connection methods, number of keel bolts size and pattern of such, size of rudder tube and associated weldment, quadrant size including cables and turning gear and attachment methods, through hulls (every Bene I've been on uses spin on skin fittings with ball valve) window installation methodology (framed/unframed), hatch installation (though bolted or screwed)...we can go on... CE A is a simple laundry list with no real reference to scantlings.
PLease joli, stop criticising the Bene

As to Cat A and the RCD
RCD must have compliance with ( amongst many other ISO standards)
ISO 12217 ( stability and buoyancy)
ISO 11812 ( watertight and quick draining cockpits)
ISO 12216 ( standards of portlights and windows)
ISO12215 ( hull construction & scantlings)
ISO 15084 ( strong points for towing).


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Old 07-11-2011, 16:46   #314
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Do you know anything of interest about the incident? (Photos?).

FWIW my Linkedin misses out quite a bit - stuff like that simply gets written / re-written according to the expected audience. Main purpose is to keep a line of communication open to folk who may one day be useful (but probably won't be) and who you can't be ars#d to speak to - let alone meet.

And it's also not Facebook where every fart gets recorded
I have a few dozen photos of Sanctuary The early one showing her flying a furled genoa when she was first sighted, the rest add nothing to the known facts.
She was riding high in the water with an inflated dinghy perched on her foredeck, neatly furled sails and bimini and what appears to be a barbecue mounted on the pushpit railing. No visible "jerry cans" or such to provide supplementary fuel.

Contrary to some speculation Sanctuary was not in the lee of the GEM when the crew rescue was effected. She lay to windward with the ship's boat launched and recovered on the ship's windward side. This practice developed whilst servicing the North Atlantic weather ships and Trinity House lightships and bouys around the UK's storm swept coasts.

I do however have brief but excellent quality video of the lifeboat's recovery which shows the very real danger faced by her (Filipino?) crew. The passage to and from Sanctuary was a doddle, the lifeboat making easy work of the moderate but confused waves and swell.

The windward smooth created by the Master's masterful handling was a treat to see, he engineered nearly ideal conditions for re-securing his lifeboat. Even so, the bow and stern men charged with catching the wildly swinging fall blocks were in mortal peril as they grappled to re hook their boat.

Now for the bad bit. I don't know how to upload this video, it is in AVI format and that's all I know.

QB
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Old 07-11-2011, 17:43   #315
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Re: Crew of SV 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

You can upload AVI to Youtube and paste the link here. They make it pretty easy, and have walk-through instructions. AVI is a pretty large format though, so you might want to find a free program to convert it to MPEG or something smaller, just to save upload time.
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