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Old 14-12-2009, 22:19   #91
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Originally Posted by Not Sure View Post
Well, let's see who would normally get paid in such a circumstance;
(1) The surveyor who said that the boat was in excellent shape would collect a fee, (and possibly a kickback from any potential sale).
(2) The broker would collect a fee (+ percentage?) if one was used.
(3) The former owner would collect the selling price ($80k?), and
(4) the new owner would collect the insurance claim ($80k?).

That's a sizable amount of money being bandied about in these economic times.
Not Sure- Are you reading what you are writing? Is it just coming out wrong? cause what I am reading is you think / imply this is some kind of conspiracy. So the plan is to buy a beautiful vessel, sail off into the atlantic, have catastrophic failure, and take a helicopter ride home with possessions in a soggy plastic bag. All to collect an insurance claim, which will not cover the thousands spent in obtaining the vessel. Not Sure, I guaranty this is a loss in many ways for the owner, so these speculations are beyond fantasy, its pure stupidity, and hurtful. Oh, lets not forget your connecting it to the economic downturn, man alive.
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Old 14-12-2009, 22:30   #92
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Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
Not Sure- Are you reading what you are writing? Is it just coming out wrong? cause what I am reading is you think / imply this is some kind of conspiracy. So the plan is to buy a beautiful vessel, sail off into the atlantic, have catastrophic failure, and take a helicopter ride home with possessions in a soggy plastic bag. All to collect an insurance claim, which will not cover the thousands spent in obtaining the vessel. Not Sure, I guaranty this is a loss in many ways for the owner, so these speculations are beyond fantasy, its pure stupidity, and hurtful. Oh, lets not forget your connecting it to the economic downturn, man alive.
OK, I've been following this thread, and there's one thing I can say for certain. The above poster has this nailed. As Archie Bunker would say "case closed".

Seriously, there is NO ONE that is going to risk their life for an $80K insurance payout TO PAY WHAT THEY OWE OR PAID ON A FREAKIN' BOAT!!! Are there people to blame? Likely.

Is the OP one of them? HELL NO. PLEASE! We can all learn by this thread - let's not beat her up in it.

Check the attitudes at the door please.
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Old 15-12-2009, 04:47   #93
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Not Sure- Are you reading what you are writing? Is it just coming out wrong? cause what I am reading is you think / imply this is some kind of conspiracy. So the plan is to buy a beautiful vessel, sail off into the atlantic, have catastrophic failure, and take a helicopter ride home with possessions in a soggy plastic bag. All to collect an insurance claim, which will not cover the thousands spent in obtaining the vessel. Not Sure, I guaranty this is a loss in many ways for the owner, so these speculations are beyond fantasy, its pure stupidity, and hurtful. Oh, lets not forget your connecting it to the economic downturn, man alive.
Follow the thread. My post was in response to a post that expressed incredulity (and ridicule) that anyone would possibly venture out in a boat that was less than seaworthy while secure in the knowledge that they 'were insured'. Nobody's is claiming that the sinking was purposeful. But it is rather naive to believe that $150k - $200k all told is chump change that people wouldn't lie, cheat, deceive, or conspire to collect, even if it entailed jumping in a raft for. If that was the case we wouldn't be subjected to 10 seasons of 'Survivor' on TV (not to mention all of the clones). All I'm saying is that there was an older $80k boat being sold/purchased that was purportedly 'well maintained'....which apparently wasn't, and the one being positioned to be left without a chair when the music to this tune stops looks to be the insurance company.

Don't get me wrong....I'm no friend of the insurance industry. But I'll say it plainly, the purported story of Lazy Jack doesn't exactly paint the sailing community out to be .....well, very knowledgeable about boats and sailing.
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Old 15-12-2009, 06:25   #94
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"Niceness" is NOT incompatible with "Honesty"

Courtesy is based on respect for other people's feelings. One of the worst abuses of courtesy is the tendency to make honesty an excuse for rudeness, by those who look upon tact as hypocritical.
Straightforward honesty is a virtue, true; but as “Miss Manners” says, it does not trump all others. It does not justify unkindness and rudeness.
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Old 15-12-2009, 07:33   #95
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Courtesy is based on respect for other people's feelings. One of the worst abuses of courtesy is the tendency to make honesty an excuse for rudeness, by those who look upon tact as hypocritical.
Straightforward honesty is a virtue, true; but as “Miss Manners” says, it does not trump all others. It does not justify unkindness and rudeness.
In the USA, that is the same exact reasoning that led to grade schools no longer giving out an 'F' as a failing grade to students, and instead switching to some more arbitrary method that everyone agreed upon didn't hurt anyone's feelings nor label anyone as a 'failure'. And we can all see how well that has worked out.
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Old 15-12-2009, 07:50   #96
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The story of Lazy Jack is a tragedy. You sir, on the other hand, are just pathetic.
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Old 15-12-2009, 08:02   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Sure View Post
In the USA, that is the same exact reasoning that led to grade schools no longer giving out an 'F' as a failing grade to students, and instead switching to some more arbitrary method that everyone agreed upon didn't hurt anyone's feelings nor label anyone as a 'failure'. And we can all see how well that has worked out.
Yes, your right in that sense. But that has nothing to do with this. We are not the ones to judge her or LABEL. That is not our place here. WE ARE NOT QUALIFIED! That's the job of the USCG and her insurance company to pass judgements. Without being there at the time, nor being involved in the chain of events, it is an exercise in futility to continue on this tack. All you can do is speculate, all else is bashing. Let's leave it be. Keep your opinion, your entitled to it, but let the proper people be the judge.
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Old 15-12-2009, 08:02   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Sure View Post
In the USA, that is the same exact reasoning that led to grade schools no longer giving out an 'F' as a failing grade to students, and instead switching to some more arbitrary method that everyone agreed upon didn't hurt anyone's feelings nor label anyone as a 'failure'. And we can all see how well that has worked out.
As a newer member, perhaps it's not my place to interject but I feel that a clarification is in order here:

Your statement is correct in instances where one has authority over another such as a teacher/student or employer/employee relationship, or in instances where someone has requested an honest opinion.

From what I've read, you are not in such a relationship with the owner, nor did she ask you for your brutally honest opinion. You are using this social convention as an excuse to be deliberately rude.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and you may voice it within the limitations of the forum rules (and the moderator's patience), but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. No one asked you to convene an investigation or a Captain's Mast. You weren't there, and you have nothing to go on except a newspaper article and a few posts from this woman.

I'm on at least a half-dozen forums and every one of them has "that guy".
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Old 15-12-2009, 09:22   #99
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Probably my final post...Regarding a fine Wayfarersloop

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The story of Lazy Jack is a tragedy. You sir, on the other hand, are just pathetic.
Ok guys, I just have to say, one thing. I'm still following and appreciate your comments on the most part. Just so you know..."Wayfarersloop" is my friend who was on the journey with me. He and 3 others stayed till the end to try and save Lazy Jack. He is an experienced seaman and helped many times as we encountered difficulties with Lazy Jack along the way.

The 4 who stayed only gave up when ...ordered to exit by the coast guard, in that storm still raging.... .

He was there, the whole way & in the final moments and has been trying to defend me here. I have ask him not to do this as it is obviously been difficult with...you know who.

So if he seems passionate.. there's a reason.

Wish I could stop watching you all discuss Lazy Jack from my perch over here...but It's what I have now.
I'm still re-living the scenes of my purchase & passage...over and over and over... & still waking up for my 3 AM Watch!

Susan...(still learning today and I hope every day for the rest of my days)

Oh and THANKS! Ocean Girl and all of you the last few days!
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Old 15-12-2009, 09:57   #100
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Well Susan I for one will apologize for the board on a whole for some of the mud slinging going on..I thought we were above that around here but apparently not.

You guys were the only ones there so you know what was the right course of action for all involved at the time ..no one here has a right to trump those decisions.
Questions and sugestions yes of course so we can all learn from them but not a Witch hunt and acusations like you have gotten here buy some.

Thank you for being tough enough to even stick around this long and I hope this bad taste of us does not keep you from blessing us with your presence in the future. It is a better place with you here.

For the members here I just want to say we are better then this. A debate is one thing an inquisition is another . Be kind even in your disagreements and doubts toward one another as to others positions , follies and mishapes...the world has a way of leveling the play field and your turn maybe coming due.

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Old 15-12-2009, 10:22   #101
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Amen....
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Old 15-12-2009, 10:29   #102
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Let me remind everyone, once again, we expect everyone to be polite. If you feel someone is out of bounds hit the report icon.

Thank you.
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Old 15-12-2009, 10:49   #103
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But I'll say it plainly, the purported story of Lazy Jack doesn't exactly paint the sailing community out to be .....well, very knowledgeable about boats and sailing.
And a self-aggrandizing, know-it-all insistence that YOU are right and everyone else is wrong doesn't exactly paint the person who assumes that attitude to be ... well, truthful, helpful, compassionate.

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Old 15-12-2009, 11:12   #104
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If all the harshness and character assasination is done can we get back to the failures that led to the sinking of this boat? FWIW I have a little through hull test I do on any boat I intend to venture offshore in. It is called the kick test. If I cant kick your through hulls I cant sail offshore on your boat. I also make sure that everyone on board knows the location and function of every one of these. Susan could not be expected to know this which is why she chose an experienced delivery crew to help her. T-hulls are one of the first things I check on a boat before heading to sea. I check for operation and condition and even then I want to know there are plugs handy. I think many of us have seen scary t-hulls and several of the issues have been mentioned.

1. Brass material
2. Gate valves
3. Incompatable threads- often tapered on the t-hull and straight on the ball valve (seacock).

What about the Marlon thruhulls made by Forspar. These are not subject to electrolosis. Can anyone with experience comment on them?

How about bonding? I have seen more corrosion problems on boats that were bonded than boats that were not, but this is just been my experience.

Then there is the chainplate. What exactly was going on there? Did it pull away from the hull due to rotten bulkheads or soggy knees? I'm not familiar with this type of boat but are the CP's externally fastened to the hull or do they pass through the deck?

I am a little surprized that the survey missed these but I cant see a lot of detail on the survey so dont know. Chainplate cracks can be very hard to spot without exploratory surgery typically not part of a survey. I did see a bristol channel cutter for sale in annapolis a few years back though that had visible cracks all over the place. Attached is a CP from a Tayana that was removed for inspection. We polished it then examined with a magnifying glass. The cracks were in the area where the CP passes through the deck. Think moisture+no oxygen= Crevice corrosion. The top and bottom of these chainplates which were visible were nice and shiny.

The other photo is of a stem-ball fititng in a masthead. This tiny crack was not noticed on survey.

Its always a personal decision as to whether a boat is fit for an offshore passage and seasoned delivery crews make these all the time. Things get missed mistakes are made, compromises happen. I will not speculate on the decisions made by others and instead try to focus on what steps I personally would take.

I hope we can learn more about this sinking as I am still very curious.

Best regards and please accept my most heartfelt condolences Susan.
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:25   #105
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If all the harshness and character assasination is done can we get back to the failures that led to the sinking of this boat? FWIW I have a little through hull test I do on any boat I intend to venture offshore in. It is called the kick test. If I cant kick your through hulls I cant sail offshore on your boat...

... Best regards and please accept my most heartfelt condolences Susan.
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ABYC standard "H-28" states:
"A seacock shall be securely mounted so that the system will withstand a 500 pound force applied for 30 seconds to the inboard end of it's connecting fitting at any point in it's most vulnerable direction ...
... Seaqcocks shall be readilly accessible ..."
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