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Old 01-09-2011, 21:33   #61
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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Originally Posted by Extemporaneous View Post
"were harassed"
What does that mean.
The pirates were circling them and sticking out their tongues and giving them the middle finger, it was also reported that they were doing that thing that Italians do with their hand on their chins ,but there is no proof of the latter! DVC
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Old 01-09-2011, 21:49   #62
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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What's the logic that a boat captain can sail the world, navigate, engineer and repair his boat, but is incapable of aiming and firing a weapon?? Speak for yourself and your own incapabilities, don't pass judgement on the capabilities of others. Especially when your real agenda is to impose your misguided beliefs on others.
Proverbs 30:10.

I was referring to machine guns, WP and Thermite Grenades, all of which take a bit of training to use safely and effectively. An amateur can easily let a machine gun get out of control; Willy Pete grenades, while primarily used for smoke screening, have a good anti-personnel effect due to the phosphorus, but have to be used carefully to prevent self or friendly casualties. Thermite grenades are primarily anti-material. Secondly, I am a hunter, target shooter, and excellent rifle shot out to 1000m; furthermore, I am trained on several types of machine guns and assault weapons. Third I have no agenda and am certainly not trying to impose any misguided beliefs on others.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:15   #63
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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Originally Posted by Astrid View Post
Proverbs 30:10.

I was referring to machine guns, WP and Thermite Grenades, all of which take a bit of training to use safely and effectively. An amateur can easily let a machine gun get out of control; Willy Pete grenades, while primarily used for smoke screening, have a good anti-personnel effect due to the phosphorus, but have to be used carefully to prevent self or friendly casualties. Thermite grenades are primarily anti-material. Secondly, I am a hunter, target shooter, and excellent rifle shot out to 1000m; furthermore, I am trained on several types of machine guns and assault weapons. Third I have no agenda and am certainly not trying to impose any misguided beliefs on others.
Astrid,

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Seems we're on the same page. I grew up as a hunter / target shooter as well and take offense when anti-gun people assume that everyone is incompetent handling fire arms, just because they are.

Somewhere it was said that if you don't study and learn from history, it is destined to repeat itself. Regarding piracy, history is repeating itself. A maritime attorney wrote an article about the history of Piracy, in the Wall Street Journal months back, that everyone might find interesting. I'll summarize:

1) England promoted Privateers to harass and steal from the Spanish, while the Spanish were plundering the Americas (stealing from the Incas and Mayans). approx timeframe 1500 and 1600's
2) Spain, England, France, etc. reached a deal to share the Americas. Now Privateers were a problem and needed to be eliminated. approx timeframe 1600 and 1700's
3) Spain, England, France, etc. passed international law that all merchant and private vessels should be armed and ALLOWED TO BE ARMED WHILE IN PORTS around the world. 1700 and 1800's
4) Merchant and private vessels were not expected to detain and bring Pirates to trial, just shoot to kill. 1700's through 1800's
5) Piracy is almost eliminated, 1800's through roughly 1950.
6) United Nations works to have guns banned in all ports around the world, thereby eliminating them from merchant and private vessels, 1950's +
7) Thank the UN for making piracy a much safer occupation.

The aforementioned is based on my memory of the Wall Street Journal article of the History of Piracy.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:32   #64
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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Come on tell us what you would do with um! DVC
If you are in posession of a LMG, you are in fine shape for somali pirates. They carry a very reliable, but fatally inaccurate AK-47, and very short range RPG's. If you were required to have, or had in your posession one M-60 or SAW, you use the thermite for clean up afterwards.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:37   #65
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

I would have to sympathise with the chandlers position. We pay a lot of money in taxes, and like British subjects our respective governments spend Billions on "defence".

A little return for that money, IE protection; is not an unreasonable request especially since the charter of the navy is to protect maritime interests on the high seas.

I don't expect the military to go in guns blazing every time a subject gets into trouble, but when an organised effort to rob, and disrupt shipping exists, it merits a great deal more attention than it has gotten so far.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:47   #66
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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I would have to sympathise with the chandlers position. We pay a lot of money in taxes, and like British subjects our respective governments spend Billions on "defence".

A little return for that money, IE protection; is not an unreasonable request especially since the charter of the navy is to protect maritime interests on the high seas.

I don't expect the military to go in guns blazing every time a subject gets into trouble, but when an organised effort to rob, and disrupt shipping exists, it merits a great deal more attention than it has gotten so far.
I could not agree more. It was not that long ago that our military was sent to Panama to extract one Ameircan from prision.

Not more than 3 years ago, Somali pirates were delt with by the US Navy.

This is not an insurmountable problem. There are solutions to this. But most are messy, and in a world gone mad with political correctness, is distasteful to decision makers.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:18   #67
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

@timbenner. No problem. I figured it was a misunderstanding.

@neptunes trident: yes. the light machinegun, if belt fed, has longer ranger and better sustained fired capability if used properly, although at sea a pintle-mount would probably be better, making the LMG into a medium or heavy mount. As you say, thermite and probably WP grenades would both be useful only to scuttle the pirate skiff or a larger boat--thermite would burn through the hull, while WP would have a general incendiary effect.

I neither condemn nor advocate armed self-defence, as the choice to utilize it or not is a very personal one. I do not usually get into the guns and weapons arguments, as they tend to get too emotionally charged to the dismay and annoyance of our moderators, so hopefully, with everyone's approval and understanding, I shall bow out of the discussion.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:25   #68
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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@timbenner. No problem. I figured it was a misunderstanding.

@neptunes trident: yes. the light machinegun, if belt fed, has longer ranger and better sustained fired capability if used properly, although at sea a pintle-mount would probably be better, making the LMG into a medium or heavy mount. As you say, thermite and probably WP grenades would both be useful only to scuttle the pirate skiff or a larger boat--thermite would burn through the hull, while WP would have a general incendiary effect.

I neither condemn nor advocate armed self-defence, as the choice to utilize it or not is a very personal one. I do not usually get into the guns and weapons arguments, as they tend to get too emotionally charged to the dismay and annoyance of our moderators, so hopefully, with everyone's approval and understanding, I shall bow out of the discussion.
I was thinking of the fiberglass hulls most folks have when mentioning the LMG. They can be stowed in most storage areas and have their own folding bi-pod.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:22   #69
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

This was a good thread till guns were mentioned.


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Old 02-09-2011, 09:29   #70
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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This was a good thread till guns were mentioned.



What is would your solution to the pirate problem be?
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:40   #71
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

Mark, unlike most of the posters here, has real time, actual experience with making the East Asia to the Mediterranean passage. And he has advocated clearly, in many places, that the way to handle it is to NOT GO THERE.

Which seems like very sound advice to me. Sucks to not be able to make that distance saving trip thru the suez, but there it is.

I am very sad that the Chandlers have suffered so much, but when we make choices, and take risks, sometimes the tab is a big one. Once you leave the confines of your own country you also leave the protection of that nation state.

Now you can drive, with reasonable safety from Alaska to Terra Del Fuego. But when I lived in Panama in the '80's you could drive neither south or north for any distance with out entering areas that were highly dangerous.

You could arm yourself to the teeth and TRY to drive thru Nicaragua or Columbia, but the odds of being dead were very high anyway.

Sometimes, some places just are not safe to pass thru.

Is the concept *go elsewhere* so complicated?
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:49   #72
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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Mark, unlike most of the posters here, has real time, actual experience with making the East Asia to the Mediterranean passage. And he has advocated clearly, in many places, that the way to handle it is to NOT GO THERE.

Which seems like very sound advice to me. Sucks to not be able to make that distance saving trip thru the suez, but there it is.

I am very sad that the Chandlers have suffered so much, but when we make choices, and take risks, sometimes the tab is a big one. Once you leave the confines of your own country you also leave the protection of that nation state.

Now you can drive, with reasonable safety from Alaska to Terra Del Fuego. But when I lived in Panama in the '80's you could drive neither south or north for any distance with out entering areas that were highly dangerous.

You could arm yourself to the teeth and TRY to drive thru Nicaragua or Columbia, but the odds of being dead were very high anyway.

Sometimes, some places just are not safe to pass thru.

Is the concept *go elsewhere* so complicated?
My question was not made with a smug attitude, but with curiosity. I understand he has some first hand experience. But to carry the attitude of not to go, or ignore and go else where is not a solution.

I have some South American experience from the 70's. I know how it was and understand why it was that way. And not saying any one person can solve the pirate problem, but to ignore it will not make it go away. My concern is that there are people that are killed, or worse by these folks. There has to be a solution to the problem. I am interested in the views and opinions of everyone. Those that have some experience with them have some insight.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:27   #73
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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5) Piracy is almost eliminated, 1800's through roughly 1950.
6) United Nations works to have guns banned in all ports around the world, thereby eliminating them from merchant and private vessels, 1950's +
7) Thank the UN for making piracy a much safer occupation.
The UN convention on the Law of the Sea, a convention not ratified by the US, did not ban or attempt to ban weapons on board commercial ships, it did assert that the sea was for peaceful use.

The banning of firearms aboard commercial ships is generally enshrined in the laws of the flag state and many nations do so ban "arming" commercial ships. ( Which is different to banning them carrying firearms)

Given the manning characteristics of modern ships I would fully understand that ban. Merchant ships now regulary sail through the teh GofA with armed military or private protection in board.

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What is would your solution to the pirate problem be?
Well its certainly not about providing untrained people with thermite and machine guns. Most certainly not leisure cruisers. The attitude that "hardware" is the solution is nonsense, This is a "Guns and Ammo" reader attitude, ie the fascination with on type of firearm over another.

What such proponents miss, is that we live in the real world, and in the real world, outside of the US, all this hardware is illegal, so since there isnt a gun shop in the middle of the ocean, none of this stuff can be acquired nor can you sail into anyone's territorial waters with any of it. ( as was amply demonstrated to a British contingent recently)

This is not an anti gun position, I hunt and target shoot and own a selection of firearms (including semi-automatic) ( and I live in a very restrictive EU country). This is simply the fact that leisure cruisers cannot access this materiel nor hold onto it without going to jail.

So amusing discussions, about this semi over that automatic are best carried out in "guns and ammo" forums. here we have to deal with real life

Dave
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:28   #74
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

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My question was not made with a smug attitude, but with curiosity. I understand he has some first hand experience. But to carry the attitude of not to go, or ignore and go else where is not a solution.

I have some South American experience from the 70's. I know how it was and understand why it was that way. And not saying any one person can solve the pirate problem, but to ignore it will not make it go away. My concern is that there are people that are killed, or worse by these folks. There has to be a solution to the problem. I am interested in the views and opinions of everyone. Those that have some experience with them have some insight.

You could go back and read some older threads.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:22   #75
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Re: British Couple Released After a Year in Captivity

Frankly, I quite agree with Mark. If you can avoid those areas of trouble, do so, even if it means a longer voyage. Also, I still carry a bit of metal in my arm from being on the wrong end a bullet's trajectory, and personally, I would much prefer not to experience that again.
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