Britain to Sort out Somalia in 2012!

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by atoll

someone hold the bible Qur'an and pass the ammunition!!!!

That's what it's really about, isn't it? "Fight against them (infidels) until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme". Sura 2:193 & 8:39 and so on..........

[atoll]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

That's what it's really about, isn't it? "Fight against them (infidels) until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme". Sura 2:193 & 8:39 and so on..........

more like a certain aussie oil company has bought the rights to a estimated 5 billion barrels of oil in the north......................

[tager]

YAAAWN. Why don't we talk about sailing?

"Is it so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? It's the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward for his stroke. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."

"Simply messing...about in boats -- or with boats... In or out of 'em it doesn't matter. Nothing seems to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

"Look here! If you've really nothing else on hand this morning, supposing we drop down the river together and have a long day of it.?"

Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Grahame

[goboatingnow]

Of course all the shoot em dead brigade conveniently forget about the 800 hostages currently held. I don't think they'd willingly give up their lives to facilitate armed response. Have you asked them?

As to establishing a 12mile limit. You've no idea as to geography. Somalia
has a 1500 mile coastline. You could swallow the whole US navy and not succeed in that. By the way the western navies are not the biggest contributors to navel assets there anyway ( the US has TWO ships there).

In fact talking to my bulk tanker friend. The current naval task force has prevented any significant hijack attempt in 2011. Ships travel in convoy maintain high speed and often employ dedicated protection assts ( including spetnaz and hiring Russian destroyers)

Sounds like its basically under control. No place for leisure yachts but so what go somewhere else you're not important.

Dave

[atoll]

and ratty dug his head in the sand,and all was bliss............

sorry for the interest in a country that is only 700 miles from one of my homes,and directly effects my livelyhood.

im sure if mexico had a similar problem effecting your territorial waters there would be a lively debate.....................

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sounds like its basically under control. No place for leisure yachts but so what go somewhere else you're not important.

Dave

Of course to most of us, it's the attacks on leisure boats we are concerned with.

I don't have any new answers we haven't beaten to death already on past threads.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Of course all the shoot em dead brigade conveniently forget about the 800 hostages currently held. I don't think they'd willingly give up their lives to facilitate armed response. Have you asked them?

My position is essentially - tough luck. Can't say I would even bother trying to rescue 'em......maybe put a $1,000 reward (for expenses ) on each when handed over to UN / AU. or a bit less.

But I would sink the ships at anchor - or at least disable them and make the cargos worthless. As folks have said, it is a business (how that business developed is unimportant - gotta deal with how things are now).....take away the assets by sinking the current hostage ships and it also removes the secure refuge for further ships - plus destroys the business model, no point spending time and money on pirating a ship only to find it gets sunk before a ransom can be collected........and on which note, enforce the existing laws that make paying money (ransoms) to "terrorists" a crime - wave jail time at the execs of the shipping and insurance companies and they will be a lot less willing to carry on supporting the Somali business model.

Gotta be aware that "Organised Crime" is surprisingly disorganised, plusses and minuses to that - the big minus is when folk get onto the radar of law enforcement by getting a bit too big for there boots......alliances shift, support structures collapse and key personnel that have long been relied upon get deaded. All that happens over time anyway - a nudge is often all that is needed......in this case it is not so much about stopping Somalis with guns being criminals, but keeping them onshore.

Could do the above within a week.



BTW, on a general note to all, there is no Pirate King

[stevensuf]

With regard to us Scottish people,I did put forward a note to the SNP (local political party) to make scotland independent, legalise everything, exit the eu, become a tax haven , a bigger better amsterdam, open up a huge chain of duty free ciggies/booze/ fuel stores along the english border, reclaim the last of our oil, sell the water/electricity down south and have a good old party on the proceeds, the only nation on earth to have huge natural resources and get poorer.

On a side note , I am still awaiting an answer from irn bru, on the subject of a free cruising chute with irn bru decals and filling my forward water tank with aforesaid mentioned irn bru and also i am awaiting sponsorship from glenfiddich for the aft water tank filling

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Of course all the shoot em dead brigade conveniently forget about the 800 hostages currently held. I don't think they'd willingly give up their lives to facilitate armed response. Have you asked them?

They used to say similar things about airline hijackings. Another form of piracy. Then there was Entebbe. It just took someone to dig their heels in and and say NO. Then do something about it. Hijacking for fun and profit declined rapidly after that. Not the only reason of course, but it was a serious factor. It was a business and when that business model was found to be flawed, the entrepreneurial hijackers looked for less risky investments.

I did suggest a visit from the SAS and/or SBS. Hostage rescue is their forte.
I've little doubt, that should it be required, and it may well be, they would do some in depth, covert surveillance to establish what hostages were where, what security was in place and come up with a way to extract all or most with the least risk. No such operation is likely to be perfect, but the mere fact it happened would almost certainly destroy the virtually unhindered success they've had once they get a ship to a pirate port. All the successful rescues or defeats of attempted pirating have taken place at sea. Once they get to shore, the hostages are presumably dispersed or perhaps secured in their ships, I don't know, but I'd be quite confident the gentlemen with the sand coloured berets would be able to find out.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As to establishing a 12mile limit. You've no idea as to geography. Somalia has a 1500 mile coastline. You could swallow the whole US navy and not succeed in that. By the way the western navies are not the biggest contributors to navel assets there anyway ( the US has TWO ships there).

You don't need to cover the whole coast, just the locales that are big enough to take hostage vessels. Use satellite and 'other means' to locate their bases of operation/home villages, whatever. If you know where they come from and where they go, you can do something about it.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In fact talking to my bulk tanker friend. The current naval task force has prevented any significant hijack attempt in 2011. Ships travel in convoy maintain high speed and often employ dedicated protection assts ( including spetnaz and hiring Russian destroyers)

I'm aware of two hijackings in the last month or so. I'm wondering how loose the convoys are and how close and how many the escorts. The Brits have some experience with convoys, perhaps more than others. Might be time to let them have a go.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sounds like its basically under control.

If it were 'under control' there would be no hijackings and no hostages. But both still happen. You mentioned 800 still being held did you not? Until they are free, it's not 'under control'. I'm not in favour of writing them off as a cost of doing business either. But the chances are some will die or be killed before they get home, whether through indifference, impatience or just plain orneryness on the part of the captors, who value life generally not at all, or in some rescue or assault by a military force. The latter has the advantage of making future potential hostage takers very, very aware of what can happen to them if they do it again.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No place for leisure yachts but so what go somewhere else you're not important.

Not unreasonable, though some parts of the world are difficult to reach without getting within striking distance, but it's not impossible either. Not important? Perhaps not, but the continued success of this 'business' is a wider threat, it's continued success due to the apparent reluctance of other nations to take decisive action to terminate it is doubtless creating thoughts in the minds of criminal and other subversive organisations that could do with a quick mill or so, in and around the Carribean and other places. The boegies are still out there too... they tend to prey on smaller craft, but a pirate is a pirate...

(The child scaring 'boogey man' is derived from them.)

AussieGeoff

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

They used to say similar things about airline hijackings. Another form of piracy. Then there was Entebbe. It just took someone to dig their heels in and and say NO. Then do something about it. Hijacking for fun and profit declined rapidly after that. Not the only reason of course, but it was a serious factor. It was a business and when that business model was found to be flawed, the entrepreneurial hijackers looked for less risky investments.

Aircraft hostage rescue is entirely different. The hostages are in a well defined well understood position. The hijackers are usually few in number. Etc. almost all active military interventions by special forces has resulted in deaths of the hostages on yachts.

I did suggest a visit from the SAS and/or SBS. Hostage rescue is their forte.
I've little doubt, that should it be required, and it may well be, they would do some in depth, covert surveillance to establish what hostages were where, what security was in place and come up with a way to extract all or most with the least risk. No such operation is likely to be perfect, but the mere fact it happened would almost certainly destroy the virtually unhindered success they've had once they get a ship to a pirate port. All the successful rescues or defeats of attempted pirating have taken place at sea. Once they get to shore, the hostages are presumably dispersed or perhaps secured in their ships, I don't know, but I'd be quite confident the gentlemen with the sand coloured berets would be able to find out.

You over estimate the ability of such special forces. Perhaps by reading too much comic material that portrays them as super heroes or watching Tom cruise too much. Take a look at the OBL raid re entry by seal team 6 probably the best here's here is. It's not easy things go wrong equipment fails and people die.

You don't need to cover the whole coast, just the locales that are big enough to take hostage vessels. Use satellite and 'other means' to locate their bases of operation/home villages, whatever. If you know where they come from and where they go, you can do something about it.

Don't take my word for it , read the interviews with US and EUNAVFOR they both dismiss the idea of a blockade on practical grounds not to mention the fact that blockages are a declaration of war. They also address the difficulties of getting slow ships into position to react in an enormous sea area. Sure throw a couple of aircraft carriers at it etc. but that's never going to happen.

I'm aware of two hijackings in the last month or so. I'm wondering how loose the convoys are and how close and how many the escorts. The Brits have some experience with convoys, perhaps more than others. Might be time to let them have a go.

If it were 'under control' there would be no hijackings and no hostages. But both still happen. You mentioned 800 still being held did you not? Until they are free, it's not 'under control'. I'm not in favour of writing them off as a cost of doing business either. But the chances are some will die or be killed before they get home, whether through indifference, impatience or just plain orneryness on the part of the captors, who value life generally not at all, or in some rescue or assault by a military force. The latter has the advantage of making future potential hostage takers very, very aware of what can happen to them if they do it again.

............



AussieGeoff

There has been a very considerable reduction in activity in 2011. The latest hijacking being the MT liquid velvet after many months of no activity.

I don't beleive any more naval assets would improve the situation. There are dozens of vessels from the Chinese, Indian , Eu russian, us etc fleets present.

It's about as good as it gets. Unless change is forthcoming in Somalia itself the situation at best will just be contained.

Dave

[hummingway]

The subject of the thread is Britain and it's efforts to end the piracy problem in Somalia. Several posts have been deleted as they were following an off topic troll down the rabbit hole. Any further digressions will result in the thread being closed and any trolls will result in action as per the warning you read before posting in this thread.

[sailorboy1]

I just read the linked story in the original post. To me it all sounds like political pandering. Seems there are already more groups trying to "sort out" the issues already that are much closer to the problem.

[Wolfhound]

Caesar & the Pirates

Here's a translation of Plutarch's version of Caesar and the pirates---

After a short stay there [in Bithynia] with Nicomedes, the king, in his passage back Caesar was taken near the island of Pharmacusa by some of the pirates, who, at that time, with large fleets of ships and innumerable smaller vessels, infested the seas everywhere.

When these men at first demanded of him twenty talents for his ransom, he laughed at them for not understanding the value of their prisoner, and voluntarily engaged to give them fifty. He presently despatched those about him to several places to raise the money, till at last he was left among a set of the most bloodthirsty people in the world, the Cilicians, only with one friend and two attendants. Yet he made so little of them, that when he had a mind to sleep, he would send to them, and order them to make no noise. For thirty-eight days, with all the freedom in the world, he amused himself with joining in their exercises and games, as if they had not been his keepers, but his guards.

He wrote verses and speeches, and made them his auditors, and those who did not admire them, he called to their faces illiterate and barbarous, and would often, in raillery, threaten to hang them. They were greatly taken with this, and attributed his free talking to a kind of simplicity and boyish playfulness.

As soon as his ransom was come from Miletus, he paid it, and was discharged, and proceeded at once to man some ships at the port of Miletus, and went in pursuit of the pirates, whom he surprised with their ships still stationed at the island, and took most of them. Their money he made his prize, and the men he secured in prison at Pergamus, and he made application to Junius, who was then governor of Asia, to whose office it belonged, as praetor, to determine their punishment.

Junius, having his eye upon the money, for the sum was considerable, said he would think at his leisure what to do with the prisoners, upon which Caesar took his leave of him, and went off to Pergamus, where he ordered the pirates to be brought forth and crucified; the punishment he had often threatened them with whilst he was in their hands, and they little dreamt he was in earnest.

And here's the Latin maxim on the law respecting pirates since ancient times---

Pirata est hostis humani generis.

(A pirate is an enemy of the human race.)

Despite all the glamorization of pirates in the pirate movies, the ancients had it right.

Wolfhound

[SVAspen]

Actually 2011 had one of the highest rates of piracy ever for the Indian Ocean. Just look at the UKMTO or MARLO statistics.

Also, there were 3 US Navy Warships in Salalah, Oman at the same time this spring. Then there were 4 others who rotated through that same spring during the time we were there. Therefore, there were many more US Navy warships patrolling this region than were stated in the previous posts.

[Blue Stocking]

This probably won't make it past the "be nice" warning but "pleasure cruising" through known pirate activity areas is just as stupid as pedal cycling across Iran, extreme snow ski-ing in avalanches, kissing sharks in the caribbean feeding holes,etc.
Any captain who places his crew in this kind of dangerous situation is, --well!--not a captain.
Sorry folks, how many times do you have to tell'um.