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Old 25-12-2011, 22:36   #31
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
This was a 1st, got a warning that this is a hot topic and needed to "agree" to be nice.

All I was going to post was the Russian Navy doesn't share our "catch and release" policy for Somalia pirates. The below link shows the rather harsh way the Russian Navy is dealing with the pirates, so caution if you have a weak stomach.
I'm afraid I can find very little sympathy for the pirates. The penalty for piracy (genuine piracy, not privateering) has always been death, given the numbers visible on the larger boat, no doubt they were not fishermen, only one reason for that many on board in that area and that's plying the old trade.

The Russians apparently consider them fair game and I think perhaps they have the right approach. Pirate = Free live fire targets.

Always sad to see any vessel taken down like that, but this is not a game of tiddlywinks, they kill people and keep others locked up for years. No excuse.

All that said, I don't think it's actually that harsh. It looks from the video as if personnel were taken off before the ship and boats were destroyed.

The first pic of the mothership is when it's underway at probably full throttle and apparently attempting evasive action with around 25 POB. I'm guessing they headed for a ship with hostile intent and found a warship instead of a target.

The shooting starts with the pirate mothership and it's boats apparently roped together, lying dead in the water and no personnel visible. Since the boats were nowhere in sight previously, they've clearly been gathered together for a purpose.

Hmm, everything from small arms, to 12mm, rpg, the Russian equivalent of Phalanx (I think) and 120mm (or thereabouts) main armament. They do seem to need a little more practice to improve their accuracy, but there are probably plenty of pirates still out there so I imagine they will improve. I wonder if the pirates watch liveleak? Perhaps it might give the right message for a change.

There is little doubt that payment of ransoms etc are only encouraging further acts of piracy given the massive amounts of money being handed over, so it's, in my opinion, well past time that the navies of the world went on the offensive, it's an international problem.

Defensive patrols are largely ineffective apparently, since piracy is still occurring.

I've no doubt there are surveillance assets available to the UK and US navies that would allow them to easily id pirate vessels and ports. Perhaps a visit from the SAS or SBS one night? Hard to play pirate with no boats. The only reason they thrive is that those with the ability to stop them lack the will for some reason. Too busy elsewhere? Maybe not for long.

Good on the UK for deciding enough is enough and the Russians for showing the way.

Anything at sea that is clearly a pirate should be sunk on sight, survivors/surrendered tried and imprisoned for life. No ifs, buts, or maybes. "Treated as wolves are."

Anything else is just accepting the situation and living with it.

Bolshoyeh spasebah Russkis.

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Old 25-12-2011, 22:52   #32
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

Looks like the the Marshal Shaposhnikov is the warship. Oldish but still extremely capable and clearly no pirate is able to give it a hard time.

Class and type: Udaloy-class destroyer Name: Marshal Shaposhnikov Launched: 1985 Status: Active General characteristics Displacement: 6,200 t (6,102 long tons) standard
7,900 t (7,775 long tons) full load Length: 534 ft 9 in (162.99 m) Beam: 63 ft 4 in (19.30 m) Draught: 20 ft 4 in (6.20 m) Propulsion: 2 shaft COGAG, 4 gas turbines, 120,000 hp Speed: 35 knots (40 mph; 65 km/h) Range: 10,500 nautical miles (19,400 km) at 14 knots (16 mph; 26 km/h) Complement: 300 Armament:
  • 2 x 4 SS-N-14 anti submarine missiles
  • 8 x vertical launchers for SA-N-9 surface to air missiles
  • 2 x 1 100 mm guns
  • 4 x 30 mm Gatling guns
  • 2 x Altair CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS
  • 2 x 4 553 mm Torpedo tube, Type 53 ASW/ASuW torpedo
  • 2 x RBU-6000 anti submarine rocket launchers
Aircraft carried: 2 x Ka-27 'Helix'series helicopters Aviation facilities: Helicopter deck and hangar
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Old 26-12-2011, 01:54   #33
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

DANGER, DANGER, THIS IS A HOT TOPIC

Have I been kidnapped by aliens lately and missed something?

After this post, I will return to my kindle for another 6 months.

I wish cameron would concentrate on fixing our own bloody country and leave the foreigners to live in what ever squallor they are accustomed to. Trying to impose western values on a different culture doesnt work and usually leads to more trouble.

Carry on chaps
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Old 26-12-2011, 02:19   #34
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

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Trying to impose western values on a different culture doesnt work and usually leads to more trouble.
+1

It doesn't have to be that way - probably will be though .

My take is that with Iraq now at peace and Afghanistan drawing to a close (I wonder if the Oxford English Dictionary has yet caught up with the new definition of "Victory"? ) and Libya over (a bit too quickly?!) that there are plenty of freinds & family (of politicos) that want to carry on being fed (£££) - from a nice conflict .
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Old 26-12-2011, 02:42   #35
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

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+1

It doesn't have to be that way - probably will be though .

My take is that with Iraq now at peace and Afghanistan drawing to a close (I wonder if the Oxford English Dictionary has yet caught up with the new definition of "Victory"? ) and Libya over (a bit too quickly?!) that there are plenty of freinds & family (of politicos) that want to carry on being fed (£££) - from a nice conflict .
someone hold the bible and pass the ammunition!!!!
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Old 26-12-2011, 07:45   #36
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Follow the money. Seize their accounts.
Life is cheap in that country. Whether they are pressed into service forcefully or by free will to feed their families does not matter. The bosses funding the activity are not in those boats.
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Old 26-12-2011, 09:43   #37
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

Withstanding the urge to impose western style democracy upon another society is a compelling argument. And if valid, the contrapositive should also be valid:

Should Somalia be allowed to impose its piracy and criminal activity upon the international waters of the region?

Uh.....no.

Should Somalia be allowed to commit lawlessness upon the waters of that region of the world because the poor Somali people have been wronged by history, imperialism, failed governments, and geographic bad luck? Well, if Somalia, then why not....mmmm... Scotland?? If Somalia, then why can't the Scots be allowed to commit terror upon british shipping in their region of the world??

Hmmm.... oh yes.... maybe now it is clearer.

But here is the real thing..... somali piracy is a business. And it is working, because it is beling allowed to. Take the politics out of this and think of this as a business plan. Business plans can be exported, and set up by other businesses in other places. What if the somali business plan is allowed to be successful?

How long will it be until other disaffected, hard luck places in the world begin to see the value in investing in this kind of start up? Why not Haiti? And then what would you say? Should Haitians be allowed to kidnap and kill innocent women and CHILDREN throughout the caribbean because they have a hard life in a crappy place with a dysfunctional government?

If you say yes to one, you say yes to others.

So, what say you?

Respecfully,

J
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Old 26-12-2011, 09:59   #38
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

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Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
Should Somalia be allowed to commit lawlessness upon the waters of that region of the world because the poor Somali people have been wronged by history, imperialism, failed governments, and geographic bad luck? Well, if Somalia, then why not....mmmm... Scotland?? J
well since you mention it,scotland allready has a 600 year history of piracy,probly caused by as you quote "wronged by history, imperialism, failed governments, and geographic bad luck?"

see

Pirates & Privateers: the History of Maritime Piracy - Scottish Pirates
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Old 26-12-2011, 10:07   #39
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!



Exactly.

But...the point of course....since the Scots were cheated at Culloden...would that justify scottish crime against brits?



[Note: interesteding that the scottish parliment voted for devolution some years ago....hmmmmm.... the plot thickens...maybe they are waiting to see what Britain does about Somalia.....hmmmmmm ]
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Old 26-12-2011, 10:12   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake
Withstanding the urge to impose western style democracy upon another society is a compelling argument. And if valid, the contrapositive should also be valid:

Should Somalia be allowed to impose its piracy and criminal activity upon the international waters of the region?

Uh.....no.

Should Somalia be allowed to commit lawlessness upon the waters of that region of the world because the poor Somali people have been wronged by history, imperialism, failed governments, and geographic bad luck? Well, if Somalia, then why not....mmmm... Scotland?? If Somalia, then why can't the Scots be allowed to commit terror upon british shipping in their region of the world??

Hmmm.... oh yes.... maybe now it is clearer.

But here is the real thing..... somali piracy is a business. And it is working, because it is beling allowed to. Take the politics out of this and think of this as a business plan. Business plans can be exported, and set up by other businesses in other places. What if the somali business plan is allowed to be successful?

How long will it be until other disaffected, hard luck places in the world begin to see the value in investing in this kind of start up? Why not Haiti? And then what would you say? Should Haitians be allowed to kidnap and kill innocent women and CHILDREN throughout the caribbean because they have a hard life in a crappy place with a dysfunctional government?

If you say yes to one, you say yes to others.

So, what say you?

Respecfully,

J
Completely agree. It is a very successful business.
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Old 26-12-2011, 10:19   #41
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

[Exactly.

But...the point of course....since the Scots were cheated at Culloden...would that justify scottish crime against brits?



[Note: interesteding that the scottish parliment voted for devolution some years ago....hmmmmm.... the plot thickens...maybe they are waiting to see what Britain does about Somalia.....hmmmmmm ][/QUOTE]

youv'e obviously not been to a celtic (scot) vs rangers(royalist)football match lately

and the pirate families have moved on to banking.....much more lucrative
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Old 26-12-2011, 10:27   #42
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

The US, Russian, French, and British (and other countries that want to help) navies should work together to stop the pirates. We have the technology to monitor and impose a 12 mile sea border. And ships departing from Somila and go 12.01 miles get boarded and searched (or destroyed if they fire on the international navy). Drop pamphlets from the air telling them this over the cities.

Then you have to deal with the European countries that are dumping industrial waste off the coast.

Next, you need to have them build a canal with tens of thousands of workers from the sea to Ethiopia. Also dig out a 2 mile long lake in Ethiopia with a desalination plant and canal system. It will provide income and jobs for lots of people and building a culture and society in the north would be great.

The middle eastern countries would have to send some moderate Imams in and build housing and Mosques.
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Old 26-12-2011, 10:33   #43
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!



Boy, would I love to [go to a football match in England].

I miss international travel. I used to travel, internationally, all the time. Europe, Asia, S. America, Africa. Loved it. Loved the different cultures, different people, different ways of life. Everyone I ever met traveling, was wonderful. And I found that all peoples of the world, were more alike than they were different.

Now, I do not travel at all. It is very sad. Sad to see what the world has come to because of terrorism.

But... not to digress.

The Somali Business Plan. YES...when you strip away the dogma, the pity for the poor, starving somali people and the politics..you see...IT IS JUST A BUSINESS.

Occam's razor.

This business is hurting OUR business and hurting people.

This business CAN be exported and replicated anywhere in the world, including the caribbean.

So, just my opinion, what needs to be done is to have blue water navies do what blue water navies are suppose to do: enforce the articles of the LOS convention as they relate to piracy. And....let the Commanding Officers of each warship determine the disposition of any captured pirates. As is codified by law.

Respectfully
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Old 26-12-2011, 10:34   #44
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

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Originally Posted by SunDevil View Post
The US, Russian, French, and British (and other countries that want to help) navies should work together to stop the pirates. We have the technology to monitor and impose a 12 mile sea border. And ships departing from Somila and go 12.01 miles get boarded and searched (or destroyed if they fire on the international navy). Drop pamphlets from the air telling them this over the cities.

Then you have to deal with the European countries that are dumping industrial waste off the coast.

Next, you need to have them build a canal with tens of thousands of workers from the sea to Ethiopia. Also dig out a 2 mile long lake in Ethiopia with a desalination plant and canal system. It will provide income and jobs for lots of people and building a culture and society in the north would be great.

The middle eastern countries would have to send some moderate Imams in and build housing and Mosques.

better bet would be to start 12miles inland tho on the moderate immans,preferably ones with yachting experiance
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Old 26-12-2011, 11:31   #45
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Re: Britain to sort out Somalia in 2012!

I expect huge success: about the size entertained by the US in Iraq - first day out of the country and the 'democratic' (buhahahaha) govt couped.

But then again sitting on our fat a(rse)s in warm armchairs changes the world NEITHER.

Good luck to them in tackling an issue important to all sailors!

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