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Old 01-04-2014, 04:39   #76
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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My life has lots of grey, but in this case it was very clear. He ended up in that "event cascade" due to his own decisions. This isn't any alien or who killed JFK thing.

I know, we know the outcome. What we really don't know , is the decision tree , that a supposedly experienced captain took to arrive at the conclusion he did.

Nor do we really now what interaction took place with the captain and the crew from the captains perspective

Of course the captain shoulders the blame , he or she always does, irrespective of the processes involved. But I think there are lots of issues about talk ships, training , certification , etc.

Too many tall ships are " hiding" under leisure yacht rules to avoid commercial certification and crew standards. I do think there are issues here that need to be reexamined

Dave
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:21   #77
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Too many tall ships are " hiding" under leisure yacht rules to avoid commercial certification and crew standards. I do think there are issues here that need to be reexamined

Dave
I don't think there are any issues to exam far as the cause of this ship sinking!

Heck the ship probably would have made it if not for the decision to turn in front of it to catch the wind as the storm passed by. This was the Captain's fault!!!
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:33   #78
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Of course the captain shoulders the blame

Dave
There, you finally got it right!
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:57   #79
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I blame the captain, Who else should we blame? It really comes down to the crew though, they were not skilled seamen. Weren't they a bunch of clueless 20-something year old kids. There were no skilled engineers to deal with the pumps and engines. I'm sure the crew was fantastic motoring through calm water or light chop. And it's obvious that they viewed themselves as knowledgable because the captain made them feel that way. They all had titles, but were gardeners or do gooder college students before coming aboard. Engineers who know nothing about engines? The captain thought this was just fine apparently. Can't say having a shitty crew is anyone's else's fault. I would guess that the massive leaking was a surprise to the captain, and he expected the pumps to work. In hindsight maybe if all the pumps had run flawlessly at full bore for 24 more hours everything would be different.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:00   #80
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pirate Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Well I've been chatting to one of the crew/survivors of the Bounty incident.. around my age + a few years and a life long tall ships man.. currently sailing on Tres Hombres and here in Horta.. they sail today for Falmouth.. his take is basically.. '**** Happens'
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:18   #81
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

The wiser you are the more you realize that life is a whole lot of grey and very little if any black and white. We of course like black and white, its much easier to deal with but for the most part its an illusion.
I, like most others agree that the buck stops at the Captain but as others have said there is a whole lot we don't know and never will about the who's and why's of this tragedy.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:37   #82
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I think we know all the who's and why's, that's what the detailed coast guard investigation gave us. And since most of the crew survived we got all that information directly from them. It's not like we don't have first hand accounts of what happened. There is little gray area here, just the captains thoughts. But we don't need them as there is such a large pool of info about what went on.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:12   #83
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I know, we know the outcome. What we really don't know , is the decision tree , that a supposedly experienced captain took to arrive at the conclusion he did.

Nor do we really now what interaction took place with the captain and the crew from the captains perspective


Dave

Geeeeezzze Dave,

It really sounds like you didn't read the hearing reports or the official report.

You can't seriously believe you dont have the information to make the same finding as the report? For crying out loud what more do you need than every word of testimony?

It really irritating when people try to say the man was not a fool. Therefore we learn nothing from this tragedy. Its foolish to learn nothing. Total foolishness to think because a person shove a "captain" label around he is above the law or above the rest of humanity. Or because he is dead by his own stupidity.

He was wrong. He made a stupid, foolish mistake that killed a person and caused trauma to many.

He was not a captain but a fool

And thats what the report says.

Nothing to second guess.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:55   #84
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

If you don't know by now that "Reports" always say what the "Reporter" wants them to say, then I feel for you...

Jacques
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:13   #85
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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If you don't know by now that "Reports" always say what the "Reporter" wants them to say, then I feel for you...

Jacques
Have you read the full report? Why is it you think the National Transportation Safety Board would have any motivation other than the facts? They do investigations all the time. They interviewed the crew members. They didn't just fault the captain, but they gave him primary fault. They also found fault with the owner.

Here is the full 16 page report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2014/MAB1403.pdf

However, if you don't like the report writer, here is the link to all the information including all the interviews, the public hearings, and all other information gathered in the investigation. As the information is all publicly available, review it if you wish. But I don't see how you can and then not come away believing the captain made horrible decisions.

Accident ID DCA13LM003 Mode Marine occurred on October 29, 2012 in Atlantic Ocean, 100 NM off Cape Hatteras, NC United States Last Modified on February 01, 2014 20:02 Public Released on February 01, 2014 14:02 Total 53 document items
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:42   #86
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

The thing that is less than satisfying about these type of reports (and the surety of the commenters about them) is that while we know the details it gets us no closer to preventing it from happening again.

You can call the captain a fool all you want and it doesn't explain how he spent the rest of his life without people noticing that fact nor why if the decision was so clearly apparent did the crew follow him in this foolish endeavor. Were they fools too?

I think it is a cop out to just say it was the captains foolish decision and that is all there is to it, end of story. We learn nothing from that. We have no chance of preventing it from happening again and we have to completely ignore decades of work in performance improvement to come to that conclusion. People make foolish decisions for a reason. We would be just as foolish to forget that.

Jim
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:53   #87
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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It really irritating when people try to say the man was not a fool. Therefore we learn nothing from this tragedy. Its foolish to learn nothing. Total foolishness to think because a person shove a "captain" label around he is above the law or above the rest of humanity. Or because he is dead by his own stupidity.
]

Please don't shove things down my throat. My issue is that its often "convenient" to blame the dead, especially dead captains, people then adopt the " all wrapped up, the guys a fool etc "

The issue is more complex then that and has issues for the while tall ship movement. IN the past such vessels would have been sailed by experienced crew, captain, sailing master, mates etc. Even right up to the demise of such vessels ( tall ships) by WWII. The continous generation to generation knowledge of large sailing ships has been lost and in fact may never be recovered.

This then leads to the situation where such vessels are in effect crewed by people with little experience except for the Captain, and the Captains experience may in itself be limited.

Since the man is dead, well never know his thought processes in any detail.

I read the report, I agree with its findings, but I think theres more to be learned then just saying " captain = fool=dead". The impact on the tall ship "industry" needs to be examined, there has been a considerable loss of these vessels, in circumstances that should be avoided.

dave
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:37   #88
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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The thing that is less than satisfying about these type of reports (and the surety of the commenters about them) is that while we know the details it gets us no closer to preventing it from happening again.

You can call the captain a fool all you want and it doesn't explain how he spent the rest of his life without people noticing that fact nor why if the decision was so clearly apparent did the crew follow him in this foolish endeavor. Were they fools too?

I think it is a cop out to just say it was the captains foolish decision and that is all there is to it, end of story. We learn nothing from that. We have no chance of preventing it from happening again and we have to completely ignore decades of work in performance improvement to come to that conclusion. People make foolish decisions for a reason. We would be just as foolish to forget that.

Jim
I don't think "fools" is a term I would use. However, I would say the Captain used very poor judgement. Does it help us to know that? Does it prevent future events? Actually, I doubt it in the manner of the Captain as I think those who would do what he did still would.

As to the owner, it should be a warning to others and I think in this case it might help. Owning and showing such a boat isn't all fun and games and there is risk and liability. The owner has multiple suits against him. When you're an owner, when you're in that kind of position, you have a responsibility. So he could have and should have prevented this.

As to the crew, I also think it may make some rethink blindly following a captain. They each had a choice. I'd advise any crew member of any boat that if they feel something is dangerous and doesn't have to be done, just don't do it.

This was all to show a boat. This wasn't someone trying to get away or get home. This was not a boat built for this purpose.

I think it should make all of us reevaluate. But most are not going to use such judgement as this captain did. I just reread one of his texts where he said Sandy was going to be very bad. This was before leaving.

Life is more important than a destination, more important than our boats. So, I do think there were many who made mistakes. An engineer taking a job he's not qualified for and failing to recognize the danger of that. But ultimately, a Captain is supposed to be a professional. For those of us who hold licenses I hope it's a reminder of our responsibilities. For all those boating a reminder that we truly can put others in danger and need to be careful not to.

Why do people make such decisions as he did? Ego. We become convinced of our invincibility, that we can do anything. We lose touch with some basic realities.

It reminds me of recent discussions of hurricane evacuations of one's boats. We have a plan. But an essential part of it is that if it comes down to your life and safety versus the boat, leave the boat and get to safety. I have a friend who was in South Florida for Andrew. She had a plan for her boat. But safety for her and her daughter took precedence and she tied it best she could but she left it sitting at the dock. If our plan suddenly becomes a bad one, we need to be willing to admit it and change plans.

I have a problem with his initial decision. But also with his failure to admit as things deteriorated that it was a bad idea and then getting everyone to safety. Don't compound one mistake with others in trying to defend the first one.
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:38   #89
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
]


I read the report, I agree with its findings,

dave
Thank you!

If you do write four posts with none intimating this you can quite understand why I question it.

Yes, I agree the tall ship "industry" could do with a shakeup, both internally and externally.


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Old 01-04-2014, 12:49   #90
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
]

Please don't shove things down my throat. My issue is that its often "convenient" to blame the dead, especially dead captains, people then adopt the " all wrapped up, the guys a fool etc "

The issue is more complex then that and has issues for the while tall ship movement. IN the past such vessels would have been sailed by experienced crew, captain, sailing master, mates etc. Even right up to the demise of such vessels ( tall ships) by WWII. The continous generation to generation knowledge of large sailing ships has been lost and in fact may never be recovered.

This then leads to the situation where such vessels are in effect crewed by people with little experience except for the Captain, and the Captains experience may in itself be limited.

Since the man is dead, well never know his thought processes in any detail.

I read the report, I agree with its findings, but I think theres more to be learned then just saying " captain = fool=dead". The impact on the tall ship "industry" needs to be examined, there has been a considerable loss of these vessels, in circumstances that should be avoided.

dave
I read the crew members initial statements, the ones written in their own hand. They had so little grasp of what was going on. The first mate understood, but many of them knew so little and trusted so much.

This is a case of an industry where some owners and captains decide to take short cuts. I think that's a reason to insist on more training. It starts with an STCW 95 but it has to go much further. If you're a crew member on a commercial vessel of any kind, doing it as a job, you need some training that would help you in these situations.

The Captain isn't conveniently blamed because he'd dead. He's blamed because he made outrageously ill conceived decisions. So did the owner. And we know a good bit of the Captain's thoughts as he expressed them along the way, both in writing and verbally. We also know the Captain's knowledge and experience was extensive. The manager of the boatyard there spoke glowingly in his questioning about the Captain. In this case his skills and his confidence in them and other's beliefs in him actually worked to the detriment of all. It's not just about skills and experience. Decision making is a critical part of the job.
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