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Old 31-03-2014, 16:46   #61
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I can honestly say I haven't made a decision in my life so flagrantly exposing other persons lives as well as my own. Facing such a situation as the Captain of the Bounty or as the owner I would have without question said "no" to sailing that vessel at that time based on the known information. Furthermore, the standards of decision making required do escalate when you're a licensed professional in a field. There is then an additional obligation of an employer involved here too.

I can say that facing a situation of a planned event vs risk of lives I will choose that which doesn't risk lives. If one of my decisions does ever result in loss of life I'll feel horrible and may never recover. However, it will not happen as a result of flagrant disregard of major known risks and such indifference toward human lives. This was not some solid ocean going vessel meant to handle rough conditions, manned by a qualified professional crew, and caught in conditions that could not have been foreseen. That would have been tragic as well, but not an act such as was involved here.

I take my responsibilities seriously as both an owner and captain and the first and foremost of any of those responsibilities is the safety of all concerned.
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Old 31-03-2014, 17:00   #62
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neeltje View Post
Well, all I can say is that I hope your foresight turns out to be as good as your hindsight, and that you never find yourselves in a storm as big and quirky as Sandy.

May I also remind you that it took the National Weather Bureau no less than FOUR DAYS to confirm the storm path that it's European counterparts had predicted, and that another 69 American lives were lost between North Carolina and New York in the brink of it.

The storm turned West when everybody (here) thought it was supposed to head North-East. Oh well, it wouldn't be the first time the NWB was off a notch, now would it?

Jacques

I was tracking Sandy carefully as I was coming down the coast at the time.
NOAA was spot on in their predictions. SPOT ON!

There is absolutely no blame can be attached to NOAA. The blame lies exactly where the investigation concluded: The Captain

Quote:
Probable Cause

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the sinking of tall ship Bounty was the captain's reckless decision to sail the vessel into the well forecasted path of Hurricane Sandy, which subjected the aging vessel and the inexperienced crew to conditions from which the vessel could not recover. Contributing to the sinking was the lack of effective safety oversight by the vessel organization.
To twist this result and blame anyone else, or reduce the blame on the captain is fallacious.
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Old 31-03-2014, 17:04   #63
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Thanks mark. I read the forecast discussion which is a nice explanation of the models and how they are performing. Being I was in the East coast I was checking. I recall they had very good paths and warning cone. No way was I going to go out there and try to skirt that thing. That doesn't take foresite or hindsite.


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Old 31-03-2014, 17:27   #64
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Looks like the yard reported correctly to the uscg inspector. I can't find where they used silicone. I assume the hull was caulked with oakum or cotton. Unfortunately the crew may have helped set the oakum or cotton. The outer dressing which I understood to be dap is not what stops water. It's a layer that transitions from stringey stuff to a paintable surface. Silicone would be a bad choice. Just like having the crew caulk the seems. A lot if old timers used dap on top of the caulking. Usually used dolphinite or similar below the water. Some of this is poor informed reporting.
That boat leaked and had rot. Then went into a known hurricane. But we know this or we choose to think otherwise. Some information is just wrong.
Maybe some idiot used silicone but I would be surprised if a good yard did that.


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Old 31-03-2014, 17:45   #65
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I've read the report and lots of testimony. I'm not particulary comfortable blaming a man lying at the bottom of the ocean. Yes mistakes where made, but a whole lot of them over a number of years. I also blame the whole amateur tall ships sceanario that puts very poor trained " crew" into potentially difficult situations.

Can you say, you haven't made a stupid decision , where but for luck , you didn't end up possibly feeding fishes

Stones and glasshouses etc.
"Mistakes were made...."

The "whole tall ships scenario" doesn't put anyone into difficult situations until the Captain makes the decision to take the ship beyond the ships and/or crews limitations. In this case, WAY beyond. But I agree with you that there seems to be a dangerous mentality where "crew" are hired with virtually no experience so they have no perspective and follow the Captain who taught them everything they know into situations where they don't belong. They get away with it a few times and see this as more proof of the Captain being right. I realize that this situation happens largely because of monetary considerations, but still, I feel that it's the Captains responsibility and he needs to make the hard call even if he knows it will mean he is replaced. It's not easy being Captain, but that's why you get the most pay and respect.

If you are so concerned about stones and glasshouses that you feel uncomforable assigning blame for Ms. Christians completely unnecessary death, how will you feel when the next Captain, who finds himself feeling the same pressures that persuaded Captain Walbridge to roll the dice with his ship and crew right into a huge hurricane, makes that same wrong decision with the same tragic results?
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Old 31-03-2014, 17:49   #66
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I agree with your analysis and that furthers my discomfort. I have a fair bit of knowledge of tall ships and many have exactly similar event cascades to the bounty. Often the only experienced hand onboard is the captain and several such vessels have gone done in troubling circumstances.

I'm not condoning the decision the captain made. But I can see it happening again

Dave
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Old 31-03-2014, 18:37   #67
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I was tracking Sandy carefully as I was coming down the coast at the time.
NOAA was spot on in their predictions. SPOT ON!

There is absolutely no blame can be attached to NOAA. The blame lies exactly where the investigation concluded: The Captain



To twist this result and blame anyone else, or reduce the blame on the captain is fallacious.
If NOAA's predictions were as "spot on" and "timely" as you say, then they must have omitted to inform the powers that be, cause you'll have to admit that Sandy took everybody on the East Coast by surprise.

I'm not trying to find excuses for the Captain of the Bounty. All I'm trying to get across is that his lack of diligence was exacerbated by some really shitty weather and a really shitty boat that I wouldn't have gone out in/on even if I were terminally ill.

Was he the only one aboard who knew his boat didn't float? Were his crew shackled to it? I think not.

He might have preferred taking his rotted, leaky boat out to sea in the hope of weathering the storm, rather than have it bashed to bits at port. Who knows?
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Old 31-03-2014, 18:51   #68
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Some of this is really getting to be deep crap.

It was the Captain's fault!

The end.
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Old 31-03-2014, 19:20   #69
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Sandy didn't take anyone one on the east coast by surprise, the surprise is the complacency of the the people to heed warning of imminent danger . Read: Katrina.
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Old 31-03-2014, 19:37   #70
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I was on the east coast during sandy and recall having a 3 day lead time to prepare for the huge approaching storm. When it was done I saw the Hudson River & jersey destruction first hand. To say it surprised the east coast is crazy talk. Maybe it surprised people in California or Montana, but not us mariners in it's path.
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Old 31-03-2014, 19:49   #71
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I was on the east coast. No surprise here.those paying attention watched it days out. We were worried and most buckled down and hoped. No one I know was thinking hey lets sail out around this thing. Or hell yeah we are leaking the frames are rotten this would be perfect sailing. Let's guess and this beast Will be fine if were off Bermuda.
No forecast had that as a good plan. Not 4 days out not when they left.
It's the shipyards fault? Please show me where the shipyard applied silicone. The yard reported the condition to the coast guard inspector. The boat was taking on water at the dock. After launch. If it was the yards issue they would have hauled and made the repairs as the contract required. The yard was not found at fault.


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Old 31-03-2014, 20:23   #72
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by Neeltje View Post
If NOAA's predictions were as "spot on" and "timely" as you say, then they must have omitted to inform the powers that be, cause you'll have to admit that Sandy took everybody on the East Coast by surprise.

I'm not trying to find excuses for the Captain of the Bounty. All I'm trying to get across is that his lack of diligence was exacerbated by some really shitty weather and a really shitty boat that I wouldn't have gone out in/on even if I were terminally ill.

Was he the only one aboard who knew his boat didn't float? Were his crew shackled to it? I think not.

He might have preferred taking his rotted, leaky boat out to sea in the hope of weathering the storm, rather than have it bashed to bits at port. Who knows?

You are just trying to yank everyone's chain right? I was in Puerto Rico at the time and we watched the whole thing unfold on TV 3-4 days out -- everyone on the east coast had plenty of warning. If they didn't know about it they were living in a vacuum. As I recall there was no surprise about the track of Sandy either.

No one will ever know why the captain took the ship out in those conditions, then deliberately turned into the hurricanes path, but you can't blame it on the weather forecast.
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Old 31-03-2014, 22:57   #73
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Sandy took everyne by surprise? They shut NYC down easily 12 hours before we got hit up here. I was scheduled to pick up a Karma Fisker in Battery Park that wonderful Sunday and all morning long they were talking about preparation all over here. I never got there because of the shutdown. No surprise here. The only question was where it was going to turn in. Just as any other prediction of storms. For the severity and when it came in they were pretty on it with it all predictions after it got closer. The days even before it there was more heads up to get ready then a noreaster or heavy snowstorm. They don't shut down travel in and out of NYC for snow.

Edit: just to add I had to mention that and how ready this area was and it was no where near a suprise. Lessons to be learned but no need to debate faults. That's all and done with now. Learn from domino effect and it does not just take one single choice or a singe event to cause harm. We all just do our best taking care of number 1 and those who surround you trying themselves.



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Old 01-04-2014, 04:22   #74
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Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Some of this is really getting to be deep crap.

It was the Captain's fault!

The end.

Your life must be very black and white. Good for you
Ask yourself why a supposed experienced captain with considerable sea time , ended up in that event cascade. Those questions may never be known

But one could equally apply questions to pride of Baltimore I or even the issues around PofB 2 , or even the loss of the Astrid outside of Kinsale in Ireland.

100% crew rescue doesn't absolve the decision processes that caused these.

Dave

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Old 01-04-2014, 04:35   #75
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Your life must be very black and white. Good for you
Ask yourself why a supposed experienced captain with considerable sea time , ended up in that event cascade. Those questions may never be known

Dave

My life has lots of grey, but in this case it was very clear. He ended up in that "event cascade" due to his own decisions. That's the answer I get when I ask myself the question.
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