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Old 12-02-2014, 11:52   #46
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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the Captain had the same type of personality characteristics that you would find in a cult leader. (no I am not saying they were all a cult). What I am saying is he had an uncanny ability to get people to like, respect, and trust him when they absolutely should not have. Just like cult leaders do.

It's all very sad but in the end the blame goes both ways. Mostly it is all on the captain for not making the correct decisions and being complacent due to his "experience". The rest of the blame albeit much less goes to the crew for believing everything that was put in front of them and not questioning anything or verifying the captains competency or knowledge.
Good post, but there was a little bit twigging at the back of my mind.... Its been decades since I have done any legal eagle stuff... Part of Volenti Non Fit Injuria (voluntary assumption of risk) is that the defense cant be used in an employment situation because the employer puts the employee under duress, even unintended, due to the employment situation. This is a great example of it... You are off the boat, no pay, and pay your own bus fare the full length of the USA. Thats duress. And the employee, especially in this case, thought the Captain could get them through safely, even though that thought was erroneous.

So yes, to everything, but also yes because its human behaviour to do what the boss wants.


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Old 12-02-2014, 12:29   #47
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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While I mostly agree with you...the military backed ships...and I don't know of any other than the USCG Eagle...but that one probably has the right mix of crew, captain and oversight to remain in the realistic lines of "safe".....
Yes. That's true. Though having talked to several of her crew, she's not sailed like the flying P line would have sailed her. That experience is simply lost and gone

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Old 12-02-2014, 12:52   #48
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Yes. That's true. Though having talked to several of her crew, she's not sailed like the flying P line would have sailed her. That experience is simply lost and gone

Dave
since I was a kid in the late 50/early 60's...isn't that true of 90%+ boaters???? Every serious boater I knew back then knew knew most of Chapman's inside and out, could caulk a seam with the right tools, and knew flag etiquette...

heck ...many boaters I know even shoreside towns argue with me where the national ensign should fly on simple flagpoles.

yep...boating as an all encompassing way of life (going to sea) is an almost forgotten tradition...and many boaters will ridicule you for thinking it is important in certain aspects.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:55   #49
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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since I was a kid in the late 50/early 60's...isn't that true of 90%+ boaters???? Every serious boater I knew back then knew knew most of Chapman's inside and out, could caulk a seam with the right tools, and knew flag etiquette...

heck ...many boaters I know even shoreside towns argue with me where the national ensign should fly on simple flagpoles.

yep...boating as an all encompassing way of life (going to sea) is an almost forgotten tradition...and many boaters will ridicule you for thinking it is important in certain aspects.
No there's a difference. A modern yacht is a 21th century's machine. One where science is constantly evolving, crewing techniques evolve , just look at offshore racing.

But tall ships are relics off the past a d the expertise just isn't there

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Old 12-02-2014, 13:53   #50
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
No there's a difference. A modern yacht is a 21th century's machine. One where science is constantly evolving, crewing techniques evolve , just look at offshore racing.

But tall ships are relics off the past a d the expertise just isn't there

Dave
I don't disagree but I guess I'm just talking percentage that take overall seamanship seriously...sure the top of the pyramid racers are good at what they do...but the vast majority of boaters aren't really good at just plain old boating in general. Went from a passion to a weekend and even at that occasional pastime for the majority....at least here in the states.
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Old 18-02-2014, 07:28   #51
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I don't disagree but I guess I'm just talking percentage that take overall seamanship seriously...sure the top of the pyramid racers are good at what they do...but the vast majority of boaters aren't really good at just plain old boating in general. Went from a passion to a weekend and even at that occasional pastime for the majority....at least here in the states.
on other threads there is the continuing discussion of the need for paper charts. ONe of the reasons there are many more people boats and people crossing oceans (aside from increased affluence) is the invention of the chart plotter. Very few sailors can use a sextant today. 40 years ago, navigation was a black art that required a fair bit of study, some mathematical ability, and lots of practice.

A chartplotter requires that you can push the on button.

Yes, many of the arts of sailing are becoming "lost arts"
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Old 29-03-2014, 18:19   #52
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I just came across it for the first time a few minutes ago.

First off, I'd like to commend all the real "skippers" that replied on their excellent hindsight, and I'm sure that with a month's forewarning, they would have done exactly what should have been done to prevent the tragedy in the first place.

Secondly, I'd like to put the captain's statement about "chasing hurricanes" in context. According to a close friend of mine who sat next to him at dinner when the Bounty came into Saint Augustine a few years ago, he said he'd "rather chase after a hurricane in the open sea than run head-on into one close to shore".

For sure, he made mistakes, but I think they were compounded by happenstance and the inability of the ship's owners to maintain the boat in proper working order.
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Old 29-03-2014, 18:45   #53
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

The weather forecast was spot on. On either track that he planned he was headed into this. The boat had structure issues. The crew were amateur. He chose to run this thing into a forecast storm. Sure he was a good sole. Had good intent. He is responsible for the death of a young lady. Lesson is don't trust some salt because he needs something to work. Trust your self . Would you take that thing out if you looked at the forecast?


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Old 29-03-2014, 19:02   #54
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I just came across it for the first time a few minutes ago.

First off, I'd like to commend all the real "skippers" that replied on their excellent hindsight, and I'm sure that with a month's forewarning, they would have done exactly what should have been done to prevent the tragedy in the first place.

Secondly, I'd like to put the captain's statement about "chasing hurricanes" in context. According to a close friend of mine who sat next to him at dinner when the Bounty came into Saint Augustine a few years ago, he said he'd "rather chase after a hurricane in the open sea than run head-on into one close to shore".

For sure, he made mistakes, but I think they were compounded by happenstance and the inability of the ship's owners to maintain the boat in proper working order.
Mistakes? Sorry, I'm not benevolent enough to label them mistakes. While he's not the only one I hold accountable, he showed reckless disregard for the safety of his crew. He went without a qualified engineer. He went into conditions he should not have. He refused to listen to others. For an amateur sailing a boat their first time these would have been mistakes. But for someone holding a captain's license and claiming to be a professional this was far beyond a mistake.

I am very forgiving of mistakes. An employee fails to do something correctly although exercising their best effort and diligence, I accept a reasonable amount of that. But when people consciously make decisions that put lives of others at risk, having adequate knowledge to know that, it's not a mistake. I hear athletes constantly saying they made a mistake of driving under the influence. No, that's not a mistake. That's a conscious decision which puts the lives of the others on the road at risk. And if it results in loss of life then it's subject to criminal prosecution. I believe this act is the same and would have merited criminal prosecution had he survived. Everyone jumped on the Captain of the Costa Concordia and deservedly so. But the results of this captain's actions were far more foreseeable. If I take friends out on my boat when good weather is predicted and some totally unforecast storm arises leading to injury or death then I'd second guess myself forever if I survived but it would still be a mistake. However, if I chose to ignore a hurricane forecast and take friends into one then that's not a mistake, that's a conscious decision, and rest assured my boat is far more seaworthy than his was.

I know many professional captains and I do not know a single one who would make any of the choices the captain of the Bounty made.
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Old 29-03-2014, 19:32   #55
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

When I think of the extensive preparations I made for my boat to weather that storm TIED UP AT THE DOCK in Rhode Island, the idea that anyone would leave New London harbor and go into that HUGE weather system, unavoidable in that boat, is just crazy. I can only hope that if I am ever in that sort of peer pressure situation, I have the presence of mind to speak up and not only say, no, I am not sailing with you, but to encourage colleagues to stay in port as well.

It is too easy to get tunnel vision and make such decisions within a narrow context (in this case, because they were so used to the leaky hull, they couldn't see that it was a DANGEROUSLY leaky hull). The most important lesson I learned from this was to trust my gut in such a situation. I only have one life.
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Old 31-03-2014, 11:24   #56
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I just came across it for the first time a few minutes ago.

That's nothing, it's only been 6-1/2 wk. About 2 yr ago there was a thread revived after being idle for over 6 years.
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Old 31-03-2014, 12:40   #57
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

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Originally Posted by Neeltje View Post
Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I just came across it for the first time a few minutes ago.

First off, I'd like to commend all the real "skippers" that replied on their excellent hindsight, and I'm sure that with a month's forewarning, they would have done exactly what should have been done to prevent the tragedy in the first place.

Secondly, I'd like to put the captain's statement about "chasing hurricanes" in context. According to a close friend of mine who sat next to him at dinner when the Bounty came into Saint Augustine a few years ago, he said he'd "rather chase after a hurricane in the open sea than run head-on into one close to shore".

For sure, he made mistakes, but I think they were compounded by happenstance and the inability of the ship's owners to maintain the boat in proper working order.
Walbridge, who had bragged to a Maine TV station two months earlier that he "chased hurricanes," exposed a leaky, poorly maintained craft - a replica of an 18th century British Admiralty sailing ship - to deadly risks by ignoring pleas not to sail into the path of the approaching storm. He "subjected the aging vessel and the inexperienced crew to conditions from which the vessel could not recover," investigators concluded."

He also said the chasing hurricanes thing here in Maine shortly before one killed him, and he didn't qualify it like in your example.

Anything that has already happened is discussed with hindsight, but are you suggesting that even the most "armchair skipper" amongst us doesn't know enough to not choose to go to sea into a hurricane like Sandy was both predicted and known to be when he made the decision?

it's not "happenstance" when you choose to go to sea and dance with a huge hurricane in a boat that can barely get out of its own way, and with many known maintenance issues, from pumps to generators to planking. I think the owner also bears some responsibility for his role in marginally maintaining the Bounty, but ultimately it's the skippers responsibility to ensure that his vessel is seaworthy before taking the ship and her crew to sea. Wallbridge apparently came to believe his own bravado and paid for it with his life. That's fair, but it's too bad he also took a naive, too new to knew better, crewmember with him.
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Old 31-03-2014, 14:53   #58
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

When in business I had a standard question for consultants. It was "Tell me about a time you turned down a job or walked away from one." I asked because I knew sometimes they faced impossible tasks dictated by unreasonable business people and had to know their project couldn't succeed. Those who never said "no", I didn't want.

So, in interviewing a captain I'd ask the same. Tell me about the times you didn't sail, refused to, or made the decision not to. Every captain has faced conditions that didn't warrant following through on the day's plans.

But as a captain, I would also ask the owner, "How would you react if you had a big event planned and guests and I refused to sail?"

The person who things they can do anything is a bit disturbing. But the one who is determined to prove it is frightening and dangerous. I might think the boat and I are capable of handling a hurricane but I'm sure not going to set out to sea to try to prove it. And even were I so foolish as to risk my life, I'm certainly not going to put others at risk. It doesn't matter that they agree to do it, I have the responsibility to them.

A person is guilty of murder in the second degree when -... (2) Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes the death of another person.
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Old 31-03-2014, 14:58   #59
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

I've read the report and lots of testimony. I'm not particulary comfortable blaming a man lying at the bottom of the ocean. Yes mistakes where made, but a whole lot of them over a number of years. I also blame the whole amateur tall ships sceanario that puts very poor trained " crew" into potentially difficult situations.

Can you say, you haven't made a stupid decision , where but for luck , you didn't end up possibly feeding fishes

Stones and glasshouses etc.
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Old 31-03-2014, 15:56   #60
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Re: Bounty sinking official report!

Well, all I can say is that I hope your foresight turns out to be as good as your hindsight, and that you never find yourselves in a storm as big and quirky as Sandy.

May I also remind you that it took the National Weather Bureau no less than FOUR DAYS to confirm the storm path that it's European counterparts had predicted, and that another 69 American lives were lost between North Carolina and New York in the brink of it.

The storm turned West when everybody (here) thought it was supposed to head North-East. Oh well, it wouldn't be the first time the NWB was off a notch, now would it?

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