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Old 16-06-2013, 02:35   #121
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So that's like you go somewhere and they charge you a cruising fee, a visa fee and some other fees. Then they do not have a boat that can come along to extinguish a cruising yacht?

Apparently the cruising fees in Grenada fill the wrong wallet!
Not everywhere in the world has the nanny state on hand to wipe the bums of folks unable to help themselves...........

Sometimes that for lack of financial resources, sometimes by choice .
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Old 16-06-2013, 03:16   #122
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I'm not sure but the thru-hull standpipes is quite a unique idea.
Standpipes are reasonably common in metal boats and our aluminium boat certainly has them. They are a brilliantly simple idea and eliminate problems associated with leaking seacocks.

Amazing that a boat could withstand such a severe fire and still be floating!
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Old 16-06-2013, 03:48   #123
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Ang yours isn't ex Quasimodo is it?
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Old 16-06-2013, 04:18   #124
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

After reading this thread, I tried to research on the topic of electic panel fires, and added some stuff to my future boat to-install list. That would be:

1. Local extinguishing modules in all potentially dangerous places, including "home appliances" like dishwashers etc. Fireway Stat-X has thermal units (built-in detection) with very small volumes so all critical areas can be handled. Firetrace can be used too.

2. Fire insulation, in order to prevent fire from spreading by heat transfers. Obviously the insides of control box should have some insulation installed, there is some 3M anti-fire stuff in sheets and rolls available, or Mascoat DTM can be sprayed. And there is Nofire A-18 marine paint available, too, for more protection

3. Breakers with remote switch in all key points, including complete shutt-off of solar and wind. Develop a habit of shutting off when not in use. When off the boat, only key systems should be energized (fridge and alarms). Something like that. This part is not too clear yet and will require more thinking

I am glad this thread was started, gave me many valuable ideas about stuff I have overlooked before.
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Old 16-06-2013, 04:19   #125
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Ang yours isn't ex Quasimodo is it?
A hideous hunchback LOL?
Is this a cat owner having a go at a monohull?
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Old 16-06-2013, 04:57   #126
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I'm not sure but the thru-hull standpipes is quite a unique idea.
Not unusual at all--except maybe to those with limited exposure to boatbuilding. Maybe we should pay more attention to TecNav
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Old 16-06-2013, 08:03   #127
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Wheres my disclaimer...

This is all second hand info/suposition/gossip etc

I understand it was spray foam in all areas except two areas: The engine bay and the forward bulkhead aft the anchor locker.

I understand these two sections were "Rock Wall" but as I google it I also find "Rock Wool"

The two sections are still INTACT and they are the only intact features of the boat. The engine has been completey BURNED to nothing.

I am gunna try and get to the stern for a photo tomorrow morning. The ones from the stern I took Friday were a bit of a distance because the smoke was so toxic.

Could the engine be burned to nothing?!?!?

I will try to get a photo..
Yes it could. This was a Steyer, I believe, and with an alloy monoblock, all you would have left if the fire was hot enough was a pile of pistons, crank shaft, etc. 70% of the engine would be in a puddle somewhere.

Lacking the trained eye of another poster that would allow me to authoritatively blame it all on the owner for jury rigging circuits rather than hiring an electrician like most owners of $5mm boats would do solely based on a couple of pictures of a burned out hull, I have no clue what started this fire. However, if it was foamed, the total destruction seen can be explained. Spray foam is used on aluminum and steel boats because you can insulate the hull in a day, it stiffens the hull and for an aluminum boat quiets it marvelously. It also should, IMHO be banned from usage. In fact, I am pretty sure it is banned from CG inspected vessels because if you put a flame source to it from surrounding materials, it will burn, eventually getting hot enough to support its own combustion and that burn is going on behind the walls where it is hard to get to. Did I mention it gives off cyanide gas when it burns and the smoke can blind you? The main reason it is used is because it is cheap and effective. You can accomplish the same thing by more expensive but far safer means. In my case, after spraying the inside of Delfin's hull with QuietShip to eliminate any vibration and most all condensation, we glued 1/4" acoustical cork over the entire hull to eliminate any remaining condensation and provide some insulation and a lot of sound deadening. Then Coast Guard batts of fiberglass provided final sound deadening and insulation.

If sprayed, the holes in the hull of this vessel would be from the foam burning off, which burns hot enough to vaporize aluminum. Nasty stuff.

There are a whole lot of sprayed boats out there, including ultra high end yachts like this one. (Used to be.) If I owned one the pieces of equipment I would have would be an axe, a hachet and full face gas masks for everyone on board. Just like a fireman would use when they arrive at the scene. You need to hack to the combustion source through whatever is in the way and chip out the foam before it can start burning freely, all the while not asphyxiating yourself on the toxic gases being produced. Sound extreme? Remember that the owner and crew had HOURS to deal with this but failed.
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Old 16-06-2013, 10:04   #128
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Hi Mark,

As a personel friend of the owners of SY Uisge Beatha, I would like to thank you for your accurate reporting and photo history of the very sad demise of their yacht. Uisge Beatha was berthed here in Tunisia for a number of months before she headed to the Atlantic to do the crossing.

Regards, Kim & Duncan, SY Tiamat
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Old 16-06-2013, 11:57   #129
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Are the owners the Scottish couple who had the boat built in the first place, or was the boat sold sometime along the way?
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Old 16-06-2013, 13:52   #130
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As a practicing electronics engineer. I disagree with the generalised comments about PCB fires. This is especially true in low voltage devices where its difficult to start a PCB fire.

In mains devices there is more power so there should be improved current control

Electrical Fires on boats can be started from many sources. I've seen burned out contractors , relays terminal blocks etc

Your car isn't electrically dead nor does your boat need to be.

Use appropriate caution, not excessive

Dave
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Old 16-06-2013, 14:27   #131
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As a practicing electronics engineer. I disagree with the generalised comments about PCB fires. This is especially true in low voltage devices where its difficult to start a PCB fire.

In mains devices there is more power so there should be improved current control

Electrical Fires on boats can be started from many sources. I've seen burned out contractors , relays terminal blocks etc

Your car isn't electrically dead nor does your boat need to be.

Use appropriate caution, not excessive

Dave
The PCB from the 12 volt propane sniffer that started to smoke on me 1,500 miles out of Kuaui must have been the exception then. Here's a test you can do yourself on the potential for low voltage shorts to cause fires. Take a 6 volt car battery and ground the positive to the negative and let me know what you observe.

Cars do catch on fire, sometimes because of electrical issues. The difference between a car and a boat is that you can pull off the road in a car and get out. Boat - a little more of an issue, depending on where you are. I'm not sure that insisting on fusing all circuits on a boat where ever possible represents excessive caution, but maybe I'm paranoid. As I imagine the owner of Uisge Beatha may be in the future.
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Old 16-06-2013, 15:03   #132
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
.... that started to smoke on me 1,500 miles out of Kuaui must have been the exception then.....
It would be more relevant to Dave's comments if it actually caught fire,

Quote:
This is especially true in low voltage devices where its difficult to start a PCB fire.
Are PCB's something to be wary of or would the components behave the same if they were connected by another method? Your bit of smoke unfortunately doesn't tell us anything.
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Old 16-06-2013, 15:52   #133
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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It would be more relevant to Dave's comments if it actually caught fire,



Are PCB's something to be wary of or would the components behave the same if they were connected by another method? Your bit of smoke unfortunately doesn't tell us anything.
Given that the saloon filled up with acrid smoke from melting wires and the board, I decided not to wait until I saw visible fire before tearing it out. Think I overreacted, or is smoke frequently not a precursor to flames?
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:14   #134
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Given that the saloon filled up with acrid smoke from melting wires and the board, I decided not to wait until I saw visible fire before tearing it out. Think I overreacted, or is smoke frequently not a precursor to flames?
Possibly not overreacting

If wires were melting then sounds like your fuses weren't doing what they should have.

But it comes across like you are casting the pcb as the cause of this with no way to know if it was involved, it may well have been a component failure.

Digging deeper this seems common with many dangers onboard, bad things happen on boats sometimes but not very often, there is so little data that often you can't reliably point a finger to a common cause. Your case of a smoking pcb/wires says more about cutting power being a good idea if things do go wrong than the point that pcbs are actually quite reliable.
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:36   #135
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Possibly not overreacting

If wires were melting then sounds like your fuses weren't doing what they should have.

But it comes across like you are casting the pcb as the cause of this with no way to know if it was involved, it may well have been a component failure.

Digging deeper this seems common with many dangers onboard, bad things happen on boats sometimes but not very often, there is so little data that often you can't reliably point a finger to a common cause. Your case of a smoking pcb/wires says more about cutting power being a good idea if things do go wrong than the point that pcbs are actually quite reliable.
I think you've missed the point. The point is that the power supply to many printed circuit boards is unfused. That's why Bosch, Whirlpool and other dishwashers or devices with digital displays and controllers catch fire. The fuses on my sniffer were properly installed and fine, but the draw sufficient to start a burn was less than the fuse amperage. If you put a fuse in the device to protect the board, you'd blow it every time you went to open the solenoid valve this device was supposed to manage. Understand the problem?

Regarding the potential for fires on printed circuit boards, the following study might be helpful. Contrary to the opinion expressed above low voltage and even low wattage is no protection from fire. As noted in this study:

"Through the application of a thoughtfully designed series of experiments, this paper will demonstrate that voltages as low as 3VDC and power levels in the 3W range or less, are entirely capable of igniting proximate fuel packages sufficient to produce sustained fire in a variety of electronic assemblies."

In other words, it is simply untrue that low voltage environments on boats are less likely to cause problems than high voltage. Not to mention that many boards are powered by low voltage DC anyway, and they do catch on fire. The point is not to freak out about having circuit boards on a vessel, but to at least inform yourself whether or not the device has appropriate board level fuse protection. Some do, and some do not. The reason they do not is 1) cost, and 2) they kill the device until a technician with a soldering iron deals with it.

From the same study:

"There exists a sobering truth about today’s electronic assemblies. 100% of today’s consumer electronics are made without rosin flux (moisture resistance), use fluxes that do not “require” cleaning (leaves contamination behind more readily), use solders that contain no lead (creates more difficult soldering processes), and use boards that contain no halides to prevent the board from burning if a shorting or corrosion event were to occur."

http://www.kodiakconsulting.com/page...urce_Final.pdf
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