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Old 16-06-2013, 16:38   #136
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
This [the engine] was a Steyer, I believe, and with an alloy monoblock, all you would have left if the fire was hot enough was a pile of pistons, crank shaft, etc. 70% of the engine would be in a puddle somewhere.
I had it confirmed this afternoon, but not authoritivly, that the engine was completely burned to nothing! Or as Delfin says maybe a few bits. But crikey! The whole engine burned up? Sounds crazy.

Must have had some heat in it.

Other thing was batteries were not lithium.
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:43   #137
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Fire alarms could be a good idea
Code One 10 Year Lithium Ion Battery Operated Smoke Alarm (2-Pack)-21010019 at The Home Depot
$30 for 2!


Twin-pack of Code One brand 10 year sealed battery smoke alarm. These alarms feature an innovative design unlike any other smoke alarm. When attached to mounting bracket, the alarm will automatically activate. No switches, no pull-tabs, everything is automatic. This unique feature makes installing the Code One 10 year smoke alarms in your home, office, or business easy. In addition to the easy installation you also have the benefit of a sealed in lithium power supply, no battery replacement required over the 10-year life of the alarm. With this alarm installed in your home, office or business, you are providing an early warning in the event of a fire that can save lives.

  • Code one 10 year smoke alarm features smart hush control allowing you to temporarily silence nuisance alarms and an end of life alert indicating it is time to replace the alarm
  • These alarms utilize ionization sensing technology, ionization sensing alarms may detect invisible fire particles (associated with flaming fires) sooner than photoelectric alarms
  • Features a test/reset button that tests units circuit operation and resets memory after an alarm condition occurs
  • Alarms are UL listed and equipped with a piezoelectric horn that is rated at 85 decibels at 10 ft.
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:43   #138
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I had it confirmed this afternoon, but not authoritivly, that the engine was completely burned to nothing! Or as Delfin says maybe a few bits. But crikey! The whole engine burned up? Sounds crazy.

Must have had some heat in it.

Other thing was batteries were not lithium.
Since it takes around 7,000 degrees for aluminum to actually burn I wonder if it didn't melt and puddle away someplace. But even so that happens at 1200 degrees F! That is mighty hot.

Such a beautiful boat, my heart goes out to the owner.
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:49   #139
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The PCB from the 12 volt propane sniffer that started to smoke on me 1,500 miles out of Kuaui must have been the exception then. Here's a test you can do yourself on the potential for low voltage shorts to cause fires. Take a 6 volt car battery and ground the positive to the negative and let me know what you observe.

Cars do catch on fire, sometimes because of electrical issues. The difference between a car and a boat is that you can pull off the road in a car and get out. Boat - a little more of an issue, depending on where you are. I'm not sure that insisting on fusing all circuits on a boat where ever possible represents excessive caution, but maybe I'm paranoid. As I imagine the owner of Uisge Beatha may be in the future.
If and when we get a comphrensive report on what happened , then we can draw scientific conclusions and look at appropriate measures. Right now this is just pure speculation.

Dave
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:49   #140
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I had it confirmed this afternoon, but not authoritivly, that the engine was completely burned to nothing! Or as Delfin says maybe a few bits. But crikey! The whole engine burned up? Sounds crazy.

Must have had some heat in it.

Other thing was batteries were not lithium.

Is anybody going to save the keel before they sink it? Of course it would be hard to do but it's worth some bucks. It would set up some poor islander for years if you could sell down there.
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Old 16-06-2013, 16:54   #141
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
If and when we get a comphrensive report on what happened , then we can draw scientific conclusions and look at appropriate measures. Right now this is just pure speculation.

Dave
I made no suggestion that this vessel caught on fire due to some printed circuit board burning. In fact, I specifically said I have no clue what started the fire and given the level of damage, that may never be known.

I merely pointed out that PCB's do catch fire, and contrary to your statement, low voltage and low wattage has little to do with the potential for fire as has been amply demonstrated thousands of times every year throughout the world.

In fact, in the study posted, the removal of fire suppressants from board manufacture in homage to environmental rules has significantly increased the risk of such fires, which may be why they are up 100% over the last few years.
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Old 16-06-2013, 17:10   #142
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The most common pcb around these days is FR-4 , ( FR = Flame Retardant) see http://airborn.com.au/method/fr4pcb.html for some background This is not halogen free and contains a bromine based fire redardent, it is also RoHS compatible

Furthermore modern electro played gold boards etc and lead free soldering do not impinge on the fire resistance.

Competent low voltage power supplies design , one using IC based regulators tend to have short circuit handling circuits etc, preventing excessive fault currents.

Of course its possible to buy cheap Chinese crap. Etc , but quality manufacturers produce good products and in Europe for example must legally meet the Low Voltage Directive.

FR-4, modern flame redardent plastics and self extinguishing materials , mean that the basic technology employed in properly designed PCB based products are as safe as the systems around them.

I'm not arguing the basic fact that electrical fires can start. I am arguing that simply presenting an argument that somehow your at risk because you have PCB based products on board is ridiculous unless set in a context.

Equally blaming this on RoHS and other initiatives its a very biased and uninformed view ( as my simple info on FR -4 shows that that Kodak Fire Services is mis informed )

Dave
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Old 16-06-2013, 17:27   #143
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Is anybody going to save the keel before they sink it? .
This is all second hand info/suposition/gossip etc


Bingo. Found out today that the lead keel is 16 tons! Current price of lead is $2031 USD per metric ton.
So current thought is boat will not be sunk as is.
Also figure in value of aluminium in hull.

This is all second hand info/suposition/gossip etc
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Old 17-06-2013, 13:46   #144
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Dear cruising community
I want to make a statement with my first post on the cruisersforum due to this terrible event.
I am a friend of the owners and crew of the burned Jongert Uisge Beatha in Prickly Bay. We had a wonderful dinner with them on board on Thursday evening and left at 9.30 p.m. to our own boat moored also here in Prickly Bay. Everything was fine and we had a great evening, as always on board this very hostfriedly boat.
At about 4.oo h am on Friday we have been woke up by a shouting, and it was Scott, the engineer of Uisge Beatha, who jelled for help because they are on fire. He was dressed in his underpants with nothing else, asking me to take a VHF and we caught one of my fire extinguishers and speeded back to the Usige Beatha. The skipper was on the foredeck and fighting the smoke with a deck hose trough a hole in the bursted saloon window on the starboard side, I out my fire extiguisher powder 7 lb inside, but did not change anything. I set a PAN PAN call on Channel 16 and 72 out several times without any response. Scott was sent back to my boat to grab a bigger extinguisher 12 lb which we also poored insed the cracked window with the same result. When he was sent by the skipper to the Marina to call for help, he found a nightguard which woke up someone (Daren) who cam with his RIB maybe 10 min later, he had a cellphone and tried to call the Coastguard several times, no reply. Then he went with his fast RIB over to the Coastguard Station aclosed to the Big Fish Restaurant and woke them up, they told him to call the police. But they got a Patrol Boat ready and came in another 10 (about) minutes out, we guided them with the torch and VHF. They came to report that their firepump is not working, so we asked them to get some firefighters, hey went off and came back in another 10 to 15 minutes with two firefighters, they had oxygen masks with them, but no extinguishers, torches or any other equipment. And they said clearly that they had never been in a burning boat and their will to go in was closed to cero, they did not do it. The smoke increased, Prickly Bay Rescue had delivered another few extinguisher which had been put into the cracked saloon window above the nav station and the switchboard area, then the window cracked more due to heat and open flames came out, we had some gusts which blow the fire, and this was the moment to abandon the ship. We all left the boat into the dinghies and just could look how she burned down to nothing in the following hours, we had tears in our eyes, she was such a beautiful boat.
I took the skipper and engineer first to my boat to give them a shirt and a breakfast, thankfully they woke up and survifed this tremendous fire.

Now, after a few days and nervs recovered, I want to come to a point for us, the cruising community:
Why is here in Grenada no autorithy available for a MayDay Call on Ch 16?
>Why does the Coastguard not have a safety and rescue plan and working equipment? and so on, a lot of questions.

We are hundreds of cruising boats here in the south of wonderful Grenada, but we can not call for help in an emergency. We bring a few million dollars into the country each year, but they leave us alone with troubles.
I do not want to complain, but we should use this horrible event to make a request and a petition to the Autorithies of Grenada to improve the situation.

I look foreward to get your help and solidarity

huey
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Old 17-06-2013, 14:00   #145
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Mark-
Look askance at any ionization type fire detector that claims a ten year life. I say this after experiencing numerous detector failures, and finding out that the current statements from most every fire prevention agency say that ionization detectors will ALL INHERENTLY FAIL after some 5-7 years. There are major urban housing codes that have recently been rewritten to require their replacement in 7 years, regardless of operating condition, as a result of this.
No one wants to answer the question directly, but it appears that normal dust in the air clogs the ionization sensor, and even in the best of conditions, this kills them in 5-7 years, making replacement every 5 years a very good idea.
The photoelectric detectors don't have that problem. They also are apparently better at picking up smoldering smokey fires, which the ionization types sometimes don't pick up until after there's more than a foot of smoke on the ceiling. That can buy you a 15-30 minute head start on the fire response.
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Old 17-06-2013, 14:10   #146
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

I've been to Grenada several times. A diver friend of mine, goes there just about every year for a HAM transmitting/receiving fest. The government is corrupt and will listen to no one. Imported goods are taxed to the hilt, and this situation encourages smuggling. A case in point, a resort's SCUBA dive shop was begging for weight belts' lead brought in by sailors/divers; none were available for purchase on the island, without bribing someone in the government. Divers were being charged a separate usage fee, for using weight belts; everywhere else, weight belts were issued free of charge as part of a tank dive rental. Unfortunately, I don't see any hope for the people who live there as long as the government monopolizes the tourist and spice trades.

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Old 17-06-2013, 14:49   #147
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

The boat's owners and their insurer can hire a battery of Admiralty Attorneys to litigate their case, against Grenada, in a maritime court of law in London. This will require very deep pockets and take years of litigation. If the court finds Grenada "Guilty", it can impose international restrictions on its territorial waters.

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Old 17-06-2013, 16:00   #148
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Mark-
Look askance at any ionization type fire detector that claims a ten year life. I say this after experiencing numerous detector failures, and finding out that the current statements from most every fire prevention agency say that ionization detectors will ALL INHERENTLY FAIL after some 5-7 years. There are major urban housing codes that have recently been rewritten to require their replacement in 7 years, regardless of operating condition, as a result of this.
No one wants to answer the question directly, but it appears that normal dust in the air clogs the ionization sensor, and even in the best of conditions, this kills them in 5-7 years, making replacement every 5 years a very good idea.
The photoelectric detectors don't have that problem. They also are apparently better at picking up smoldering smokey fires, which the ionization types sometimes don't pick up until after there's more than a foot of smoke on the ceiling. That can buy you a 15-30 minute head start on the fire response.
And I have one that is over 10 years old and still yells at us sometimes when the wife does some cooking - sometimes. She doesn't read this obviously.
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Old 17-06-2013, 17:08   #149
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I had it confirmed this afternoon, but not authoritivly, that the engine was completely burned to nothing! Or as Delfin says maybe a few bits. But crikey! The whole engine burned up? Sounds crazy.

Must have had some heat in it.

Other thing was batteries were not lithium.
I heard from friends of ours on the catamaran "Mahi Mahi" who were pretty close to the action that the boat had just taken on 3,000 litres of diesel perhaps this may contribute to the intense heat.

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Old 17-06-2013, 17:37   #150
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Re: Boat Burns in Grenada!

Quote:
Why is here in Grenada no autorithy available for a MayDay Call on Ch 16?
No idea, but 68 is also regularly used.
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