Belgian customs at it again

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

While the way Belgium believes it should enforce the rules against red diesel maybe a pian in the butt the other countries appear not to bother. However, while the others put up with in your fuel tank(s) you are supposedly not allowed to have red diesel in containers. That is the rule but I have found no other country that a pies it. I left UK with full tank and another 50% in containers, passed though France, Spain, Italy, and Croatia last year with no problems or inspections.

Yes, they will kick your posterior for red diesel in containers.

But I actually find that somewhat logical -- fuel in containers could be sold, could be acquired from dodgy sources in Belgium (or wherever), could be poured into local boats.

And it's no problem complying with this rule. So it doesn't bother me all that much.

But fining you for something you have absolutely no way to comply with -- that burns me up.

[Pete7]

Well I guess life isn't fair, all that Belgian chocolate now going to waste rather than the waist

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by Polux

As heavily as in Diesel for private cars, I would say not not heavily but normally.

Lighter taxs on fuel are not for leisure purposes but for working purposes, like farming or commercial /industrial activities that need diesel for productive uses.

This is the general view on the EU and it is what the legislation (directives) regards. Hard to understand how private leisure boating has anything to do with productive work.

In the US, the availability of untaxed fuel has nothing to do with work versus leisure. It is because some portion of the fuel taxes are generally dedicated to road construction and maintenance; a way of getting those that use the roads to pay for the roads. As farm tractors and boats don't use the roads, they don't have to pay as much fuel tax. That makes sense to me; the work versus leisure dichotomy, not so much.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

In the US, the availability of untaxed fuel has nothing to do with work versus leisure. It is because some portion of the fuel taxes are generally dedicated to road construction and maintenance; a way of getting those that use the roads to pay for the roads. As farm tractors and boats don't use the roads, they don't have to pay as much fuel tax. That makes sense to me; the work versus leisure dichotomy, not so much.

Indeed.

I would say on the contrary that imposing road taxes on marine fuel is really unfair -- if the road tax fund is not, at least, being shared with marine facilities for leisure boaters -- like buoyage, municipal quays, pumpout stations, etc.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure, but that's not what we're talking about -- the Belgians are fining UK boats even when they can prove that 100% duty has been paid.

My understanding is that while UK is in the EC they have to comply with the rules and the rules in what regards lower tax fuel (for industrial or agricultural use) cannot be used for leisure purposes.

Uk is trying not to comply with the rule (in what regards leisure boats) using all types of subterfuges and EC considers they are not enforcing the rule. The British can get away with it in UK waters, but when they sail out of UK waters then EC rules, that are turned in the law of each country, will apply and a UK leisure boat cannot sail in EC waters using low tax fuel (red fuel) without risking heavy fines.

That's the way I see it and it seems it also de way Belgian authorities see it.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Is red fuel the same in the U.K. As in the US? Dyed for off highway use? As in no road taxes paid? On what basis are the Belgians issuing fines?

The Brits are responsible for inflicting Belgium on the southern Dutch. Now they're getting their revenge...

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by Polux

My understanding is that while UK is in the EC they have to comply with the rules and the rules in what regards lower tax fuel (for industrial or agricultural use) cannot be used for leisure purposes.

Uk is trying not to comply with the rule (in what regards leisure boats) using all types of subterfuges and EC considers they are not enforcing the rule. The British can get away with it in UK waters, but when they sail out of UK waters then EC rules, that are turned in the law of each country, will apply and a UK leisure boat cannot sail in EC waters using low tax fuel (red fuel) without risking heavy fines.

That's the way I see it and it seems it also de way Belgian authorities see it.

If a boater pays the tax on 100% of the fuel and has receipts to prove it how are they trying to avoid compliance?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

My understanding is that while UK is in the EC they have to comply with the rules and the rules in what regards lower tax fuel (for industrial or agricultural use) cannot be used for leisure purposes.

Uk is trying not to comply with the rule (in what regards leisure boats) using all types of subterfuges and EC considers they are not enforcing the rule. The British can get away with it in UK waters, but when they sail out of UK waters then EC rules, that are turned in the law of each country, will apply and a UK leisure boat cannot sail in EC waters using low tax fuel (red fuel) without risking heavy fines.

That's the way I see it and it seems it also de way Belgian authorities see it.

Polux, your understanding of the facts is erroneous.

Other EU countries -- Netherlands, Germany, France, for example -- accept documents from UK boats proving that 100% duty has been paid on the fuel in their tanks, and will overlook the color of the fuel since they realistically and practically understand that you cannot buy non-colored fuel in UK harbors.

When you buy fuel for a leisure vessel in the UK, you DECLARE yourself what proportion of the fuel is used for propulsion. UK law only requires you to pay duty on the part of your fuel used for propulsion, not for "domestic" uses -- that is, heating and power generation. Typical declaration is 60% propulsion, 40% domestic for boats with diesel heat and generators like mine.

THAT is controversial -- UK says this scheme complies with EU law; the EU says it does not, and the matter continues to be litigated.

So UK boaters are able to avoid this controversy in all EU countries except Belgium by voluntarily paying duty on 100% of their fuel, and having the documents to prove it. This is an extremely reasonable, fair approach which absolutely fulfills the spirit of EU law.

The Belgians, uniquely, do NOT accept this approach, and fine you for having even the slightest trace of red dye in your tanks, even though you have paid 100% duty on all your fuel.

Therefore it is simply impossible for UK boaters to comply with the Belgian requirements. The Belgians are simply punishing UK boaters for the controversy between the UK government and the EU -- absolutely asinine and nasty.


This is exactly the kind of thing which creates momentum behind the different BREXIT type movements around Europe. It creates an emotional impression of high handed, oppressive bureaucracy, which has powerful political consequences, and it will destroy the EU if the EU does not wise up. And the Belgians are total idiots.


One other thing, Polux -- duty-free fuel is allowed in the EU not only for "industrial and agricultural use". Duty free fuel is absolutely allowed for heating and electrical power generation. So the UK scheme is not any kind of "subterfuge" -- it certainly complies with the spirit of EU law.


If I had to guess, I would say that had the EU not kept pushing the UK on this one issue (!), that BREXIT itself might never have happened. The vote was so close! And boating is a national passion in the UK, a sacred ancestral right of all Britons to go down to the sea and boat and fish without any regulation, licensing, or taxation whatsoever. Did you see the new movie Dunkirk? It shows how British yachtsmen answered the call to duty to rescue British (and French) soldiers off the beaches of Dunkirk -- 700 of them! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ships_of_Dunkirk Under fire from Luftwaffe aircraft, submarines, and ground fire.

The memory of the Dunkirk Little Ships is a key chapter in the memory of the war. Mess with a British yachtsman and you mess with the British people!

The EU grinding its heel into the faces of British yachtsmen in this red fuel controversy probably influenced enough votes to change the outcome of BREXIT, in my judgement. Without some sensitivity to the cultural peculiarities around Europe, the EU will not survive, in my opinion.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

The Brits are responsible for inflicting Belgium on the southern Dutch. Now they're getting their revenge...

Ha, ha! That's very funny.

I wouldn't quite say that Belgium is a "failed state", but there are an awful lot of Flemings who would like to be annexed by the Netherlands . . .

If you meet a Flemish sailor in your travels, don't get him started on the matter unless you want to talk about it all evening . . .

[hoppy]

This whole red fuel thing is just hilarious... It's got to be an "only in the EU" thing.

Do the Belgium marinas have 2 different diesel pumps and tanks for leisure and commercial boats?

Clearly there is something very wrong going on in the head of the Belgium authorities if they look at the fuel and ignore receipts.

I must admit that I do not have a clue what colour fuel I used to get in Greece.

Little wonder the British want out of the EU when common sense is totally lacking.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One other thing, Polux -- duty-free fuel is allowed in the EU not only for "industrial and agricultural use". Duty free fuel is absolutely allowed for heating and electrical power generation. So the UK scheme is not any kind of "subterfuge" -- it certainly complies with the spirit of EU law.

It's my understanding that duty free fuel is even permissible for electricity generation where the electricity concerned is used for propulsion. Makes diesel-electric hybrids a lot more interesting suddenly...

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I wouldn't quite say that Belgium is a "failed state", but there are an awful lot of Flemings who would like to be annexed by the Netherlands . . .

Beglium is the wealthiest failed state. It's only because the population has a long tradition of basically ignoring whoever is calling the shots (centuries of foreign occupation does that) that it works.

And yes, I'm one of the Flemings who believe that a Reunited Netherlands would be preferable. But I also believe that even the french speaking Belgians would be better of in it than with France...

And so we're off...

Originally Posted by hoppy

Do the Belgium marinas have 2 different diesel pumps and tanks for leisure and commercial boats?

Commercial ships get their fuel from bunker boats. These usually deliver red diesel. That actually is a problem for some of the bigger houseboats that can only be fueled that way...

But I remember that at one time you would often find two diesel pumps in yacht harbors. I still see them at some service stations.

I wonder if Brits could do the following: Just buy your Diesel 100% tax free, then when arriving in Belgium properly declare it to custums and pay excises on it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

. . . I wonder if Brits could do the following: Just buy your Diesel 100% tax free, then when arriving in Belgium properly declare it to custums and pay excises on it.

Unfortunately not.

The Belgians don't care whether you paid duty or not. They are prosecuting for having traces of dyed fuel in the tank.

[Auspicious]

This makes me think of Florida in the US, a state whose motto is "send your money and stay home."

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Polux, your understanding of the facts is erroneous.

Other EU countries -- Netherlands, Germany, France, for example -- accept documents from UK boats proving that 100% duty has been paid on the fuel in their tanks, and will overlook the color of the fuel since they realistically and practically understand that you cannot buy non-colored fuel in UK harbors.

When you buy fuel for a leisure vessel in the UK, you DECLARE yourself what proportion of the fuel is used for propulsion. UK law only requires you to pay duty on the part of your fuel used for propulsion, not for "domestic" uses -- that is, heating and power generation. Typical declaration is 60% propulsion, 40% domestic for boats with diesel heat and generators like mine.

THAT is controversial -- UK says this scheme complies with EU law; the EU says it does not, and the matter continues to be litigated.

So UK boaters are able to avoid this controversy in all EU countries except Belgium by voluntarily paying duty on 100% of their fuel, and having the documents to prove it. This is an extremely reasonable, fair approach which absolutely fulfills the spirit of EU law.

The Belgians, uniquely, do NOT accept this approach, and fine you for having even the slightest trace of red dye in your tanks, even though you have paid 100% duty on all your fuel.

Therefore it is simply impossible for UK boaters to comply with the Belgian requirements. The Belgians are simply punishing UK boaters for the controversy between the UK government and the EU -- absolutely asinine and nasty.


This is exactly the kind of thing which creates momentum behind the different BREXIT type movements around Europe. It creates an emotional impression of high handed, oppressive bureaucracy, which has powerful political consequences, and it will destroy the EU if the EU does not wise up. And the Belgians are total idiots.


One other thing, Polux -- duty-free fuel is allowed in the EU not only for "industrial and agricultural use". Duty free fuel is absolutely allowed for heating and electrical power generation. So the UK scheme is not any kind of "subterfuge" -- it certainly complies with the spirit of EU law.


If I had to guess, I would say that had the EU not kept pushing the UK on this one issue (!), that BREXIT itself might never have happened. The vote was so close! And boating is a national passion in the UK, a sacred ancestral right of all Britons to go down to the sea and boat and fish without any regulation, licensing, or taxation whatsoever. Did you see the new movie Dunkirk? It shows how British yachtsmen answered the call to duty to rescue British (and French) soldiers off the beaches of Dunkirk -- 700 of them! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ships_of_Dunkirk Under fire from Luftwaffe aircraft, submarines, and ground fire.

The memory of the Dunkirk Little Ships is a key chapter in the memory of the war. Mess with a British yachtsman and you mess with the British people!

The EU grinding its heel into the faces of British yachtsmen in this red fuel controversy probably influenced enough votes to change the outcome of BREXIT, in my judgement. Without some sensitivity to the cultural peculiarities around Europe, the EU will not survive, in my opinion.

I find arrogant to say that my understanding of the facts is erroneous and what you say only reinforces my point, that is also the one of the Belgian government. UK boaters cannot have paid all the tax required on fuel required by EC if EC considers they are not going by the book and evading taxs on diesel for pleasure boats.

It seems to me that the Belgians simply apply the law since on EC waters a boat cannot sail with red fuel since red fuel had not paid all the taxs required. The other countries may look other way, choosing not to have troubles with it, at least for now. Strictly speaking the Belgians go for the book.

Regarding the impossibility of a boat going out of UK not abiding by EC law, as it is regarded in all other countries, I don't see a problem. Just put car taxed diesel on your boat and show the invoice showing that the diesel was fully taxed.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Polux

I find arrogant to say that my understanding of the facts is erroneous and what you say only reinforces my point, that is also the one of the Belgian government. UK boaters cannot have paid all the tax required on fuel required by EC if EC considers they are not going by the book and evading taxs on diesel for pleasure boats.

It seems to me that the Belgians simply apply the law since on EC waters a boat cannot sail with red fuel since red fuel had not paid all the taxs required. The other countries may look other way, choosing not to have troubles with it, at least for now. Strictly speaking the Belgians go for the book.

Regarding the impossibility of a boat going out of UK not abiding by EC law, as it is regarded in all other countries, I don't see a problem. Just put car taxed diesel on your boat and show the invoice showing that the diesel was fully taxed.

You are talking nonsense.
British boaters do not evade tax. They purchase what is available to them in the country. IT IS LEGAL. Whatever proportionate tax deducted by the government has NOTHING to do with the purchaser. That is a matter for the governments to discuss.

It is opportunistic to "fine" a member country for having red diesel in their tanks, for having traces of red diesel from a long time ago. Red diesel is what is available at the marina pumps. They collect the fine from individuals rather than the UK government. The individual is trapped.

Belgium has arrogated to themselves the role of policemen to benefit from "unpaid" tax and levied a huge fine which benefits... who? Belgium. Im sure the money does not get into the coffers of the EU.

The EU fails on so many levels due to countries like Belgium cashing on self made interpretations of the law.