Belgian customs at it again

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Different interpretation of EU rules by countries is the short answer.

The UK has for some time used red diesel for off road use only, farm tractors, building site equipment, cranes etc. This also included commercial and leisure vessels plus aircraft. The EU decided years ago that this couldn't go on and gave the UK some time to stop it and charge tax on fuel for propulsion particularly for yachts and aircraft. The UK kind of ignored it for a couple of decades as too difficult.

However, eventually the EU put its foot down insisting fuel for propulsion in yachts must be taxed heavily, so the UK came up with a fudge or compromise as civil servants are want to do. So on a tank full of red diesel the yachtie declares at the point of sale how much as a percentage he will use for propulsion and how much for heating and cooking which are not taxed or only lightly. UK Customs and Excise have agreed not to query a 60% propulsion and 40% heating purchase for a yacht. Higher use for heating might be open to a challenge by customs though.

So now and it has happened in the past, Belgium which has a tiny coast of 40 miles or so will fine anyone with even a minor trace of red dye because they believe that red dyed fuel should not be used as its not correctly taxed and not for leisure use. 3ppm has been quoted which gets you a E500 fine.

Once the local marina and harbour businesses feel the pinch words will be said, however, Belgium always has a hung parliament so no one party has sufficient majority to sort anything out.

Pete

What a great reply!

[BandB]

My solution would be slightly different. I wouldn't buy fuel in the UK. They've had decades to comply with what everyone else is doing.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To add just a little to this --

ALL marine diesel in the UK is dyed red.

So presumably this would affect all US and Canadian boats, too, yes?

Originally Posted by BandB

My solution would be slightly different. I wouldn't buy fuel in the UK. They've had decades to comply with what everyone else is doing.

Not so easy for many -- based in the UK -- to do. Sorta like saying don't buy fuel in FL, to FL residents...

-Chris

[wiekeith]

Originally Posted by BandB

My solution would be slightly different. I wouldn't buy fuel in the UK. They've had decades to comply with what everyone else is doing.

It’s not that straightforward. The UK coast is dotted with small marine fuel facilities that traditionally (and still do) provide fuel primerally for commercial use, such as local fishing boats. To provide also un-dyed fuel would mean the addition of second full tanks and pumps, which is not commercially viable or even practical in many cases. The sensible solution chosen by the UK was to charge leisure boaters the appropriate tax on red fuel used for leisure purposes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BandB

My solution would be slightly different. I wouldn't buy fuel in the UK. They've had decades to comply with what everyone else is doing.

How would you avoid buying fuel in your own country? Weird comment. Like telling Florida boats to only buy fuel in the Bahamas.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

So presumably this would affect all US and Canadian boats, too, yes?-Chris

Probably, of course its not the red dye that's the problem, cat litter and a dose of acid has been used in Northern Ireland for years to remove this. Southern Ireland uses green dye by the way. No, its the chemical marker you can't see that lands you in trouble.

However, we are talking about a 40 miles stretch of coast with 3 ports, Zeebrugge, Oostend and Neiwpoort. Other than having to go quite far offshore to avoid the Belgium wind farms, its only a days hop skip and a jump until you are in Holland who are completely different.

I think the original EU decision dates back to about 1993, so the English Civil Service have done a pretty good job in stalling things and then coming up with the fudge over different classes of tax on the same tank of fuel. You might think that it was more about sticking two fingers up to the EU, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Pete

[BandB]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

So presumably this would affect all US and Canadian boats, too, yes?




Not so easy for many -- based in the UK -- to do. Sorta like saying don't buy fuel in FL, to FL residents...

-Chris

I'm suggesting those cruising and not having to. Obviously some have no choice, but most do have a choice if they're cruising outside the UK.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

How would you avoid buying fuel in your own country? Weird comment. Like telling Florida boats to only buy fuel in the Bahamas.

I wouldn't like it at all. I'd start applying pressure to get my country to conform. Until then I'd buy in the next country on my planned cruise. I'm just saying that everyone is placing the fault with Belgium and that's not where the fault truly lies.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BandB

I wouldn't like it at all. I'd start applying pressure to get my country to conform. Until then I'd buy in the next country on my planned cruise. I'm just saying that everyone is placing the fault with Belgium and that's not where the fault truly lies.

I disagree. The fault is with Belgium for sure. No other European country has the same problem recognizing the reality in the UK, which is that you cannot buy undyed fuel in the UK, and that there is no infrastructure to supply undyed marine diesel fuel.

"Conforming" would mean constructing an entirely new fueling infrastructure -- not realistic at all in a country with 11,000 miles of coastline (about the same as the entire U.S. coastline including Alaska's) and hundreds of ports. And probably also replacing all the fuel tanks in all UK yachts, since you can never really get the red dye out.

You can't just "buy it until then in the next country on my cruise". You can't really ever get the red out, and certainly not with just one or several tankfuls.

It's not even relevant any more since the UK will be out of the EU altogether in a couple of years. This kind of mindless bureacratism is one of the big reasons why the Brits voted to leave the EU, which is terrible for everyone.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

tax per liter : 50 €ct/liter (approx) (ie red is 50 €ct/liter cheaper than white)

I believe the fine is calculated on the size of your tank(s) , ive read that the fine is 4.6 euros/l of tank capacity

That's a pretty hefty fine!
Can a person just declare their fuel and pay the tax? If not, it is clearly better to avoid their waters.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

. . . Can a person just declare their fuel and pay the tax? If not, it is clearly better to avoid their waters.

The tax has already been paid -- the UK started charging excise tax on fuel used for propulsion of pleasure vessels, a long time ago, to conform with EU rules, although this was hugely unpopular.

Previously fuel was untaxed like fuel used for fishing etc.

That's why other European countries are OK with British yachts having red in their tanks -- the tax in fact has been paid.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The tax has already been paid -- the UK started charging excise tax on fuel used for propulsion of pleasure vessels, a long time ago, to conform with EU rules, although this was hugely unpopular.

Previously fuel was untaxed like fuel used for fishing etc.

That's why other European countries are OK with British yachts having red in their tanks -- the tax in fact has been paid.

This keeps getting more bizarre by the moment! Thanks for the update.

If the tax has already been paid, shouldn't the EU be able to issue a judgement in this case? It seems that the EU likes to issue judgements about everything so this should also be able to be brought before them.

[wiekeith]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I disagree. The fault is with Belgium for sure. No other European country has the same problem recognizing the reality in the UK, which is that you cannot buy undyed fuel in the UK, and that there is no infrastructure to supply undyed marine diesel fuel.

"Conforming" would mean constructing an entirely new fueling infrastructure -- not realistic at all in a country with 11,000 miles of coastline (about the same as the entire U.S. coastline including Alaska's) and hundreds of ports. And probably also replacing all the fuel tanks in all UK yachts, since you can never really get the red dye out.

You can't just "buy it until then in the next country on my cruise". You can't really ever get the red out, and certainly not with just one or several tankfuls.

It's not even relevant any more since the UK will be out of the EU altogether in a couple of years. This kind of mindless bureacratism is one of the big reasons why the Brits voted to leave the EU, which is terrible for everyone.

I'm totally with you The real issue is about whether tax has been paid, not the colour of the fuel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

This keeps getting more bizarre by the moment! Thanks for the update.

If the tax has already been paid, shouldn't the EU be able to issue a judgement in this case? It seems that the EU likes to issue judgements about everything so this should also be able to be brought before them.

Yes, and other EU coastal states have flexible policies that allow British yachts to have red diesel on board PROVIDED they show receipts proving that duty was paid on 100% of the fuel. (Not the 60% or whatever which is more common -- since duty is not payable, according to UK law, on that part of the fuel used for heating and generating electricity).

That's a reasonable, practical compromise.

The EU has not acted. And with the UK leaving the EU, will surely not do anything now.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

How would you avoid buying fuel in your own country? Weird comment. Like telling Florida boats to only buy fuel in the Bahamas.

Ramsgate sells white. A few others but not many.