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Old 11-08-2017, 13:29   #226
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

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Originally Posted by PhiSig1071 View Post
...

All this talk about if this is or isn't a law and what has or hasn't been decided is irrelevant. For a significant number of yachtsmen in the UK they have no choice but to buy red diesel. They pay the tax and have reasonable proof that they have paid it, and for every other country in the EU that is sufficient. They are caught in the middle, and the Belgian Customs Service is giving them no option other than skipping Belgium altogether. That is extremely shortsighted and unfair.
The law is never irrelevant and it is not about the tax it is about dyed fuel and as you know, or should know:

"From 1 April 2012 legislation was changed to make clear that the use of red diesel with full duty paid for propelling private pleasure craft is permitted under UK national legislation within UK waters. When red diesel is used outside UK waters it will be subject to any prohibitions and restrictions that apply in the waters of the member state or country in whose waters it is used.

The declaration was changed to reflect the new legislation and to ensure that users were aware of the position. From 1 April 2012 the declaration is to be in the following format:

....I am aware that the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979, which permits the use of marked diesel to propel private pleasure craft, only applies within UK waters. I acknowledge that nothing in that Act, or the making of this declaration, affects any restrictions or prohibitions that may apply to the use of fuel for propelling private pleasure craft outside UK waters, including any restrictions or prohibitions under the law of another member state that apply within the waters of that member state.’....

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...leasure-flying

So you sign a declaration that says that dyed fuel is only legal in UK and that out of UK you will be subjected to the laws of other countries regarding dyed fuel and that means you cannot use it on EU waters and complain because Belgians or any other country is finning you because you are not respecting the law that you very well know?

The problem here is UK not respecting EU law, as it was obliged. If it was so you would be using non dyed fuel for propulsion of pleasure boats and will not have a problem anywhere.

It seems to me that the ones that you should complain are the UK government for creating this situation that is very inconvenient for UK sailors and nobody else.
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Old 11-08-2017, 14:26   #227
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The law is never irrelevant and it is not about the tax it is about dyed fuel and as you know, or should know:

"From 1 April 2012 legislation was changed to make clear that the use of red diesel with full duty paid for propelling private pleasure craft is permitted under UK national legislation within UK waters. When red diesel is used outside UK waters it will be subject to any prohibitions and restrictions that apply in the waters of the member state or country in whose waters it is used.

The declaration was changed to reflect the new legislation and to ensure that users were aware of the position. From 1 April 2012 the declaration is to be in the following format:

....I am aware that the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979, which permits the use of marked diesel to propel private pleasure craft, only applies within UK waters. I acknowledge that nothing in that Act, or the making of this declaration, affects any restrictions or prohibitions that may apply to the use of fuel for propelling private pleasure craft outside UK waters, including any restrictions or prohibitions under the law of another member state that apply within the waters of that member state.’....

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...leasure-flying

So you sign a declaration that says that dyed fuel is only legal in UK and that out of UK you will be subjected to the laws of other countries regarding dyed fuel and that means you cannot use it on EU waters and complain because Belgians or any other country is finning you because you are not respecting the law that you very well know?

The problem here is UK not respecting EU law, as it was obliged. If it was so you would be using non dyed fuel for propulsion of pleasure boats and will not have a problem anywhere.

It seems to me that the ones that you should complain are the UK government for creating this situation that is very inconvenient for UK sailors and nobody else.
The laws are to some extent irrelevant in this instance, specifically the instance of Belgian customs fining British sailing vessels for having red diesel. It's all well and good that British Yachtsmen have to sign a declaration saying that they understand that red diesel is only for use in UK waters. But if red diesel is the only option, what other choice do they have? You and I both damn well know that the declaration is nothing more than the UK covering it's ass so that they cannot face any legal repercussions from British yachtsmen who get fined for marked diesel. It is in no way a legitimate solution to the issue.

The laws concerning marked fuel in the EU all revolve around "improper use" of marked diesel, right? Improper use would be using lower tax diesel fuel for activities for which it is not approved by the EU. Since many British yachtsmen are not able to get unmarked fuel, the solution is to pay the appropriate taxes on otherwise untaxed fuel. It is by no means a perfect solution, but it is reasonable, and virtually the only option available to many people. Every other country in the EU understands that, and seems to accept it as a reasonable solution to the issue because of a lack of other options. Belgium is the only country in the EU who is fining them. So are you telling me the rest of the EU is wrong? That every EU member state should be testing fuel and fining yachtsmen from the UK? That's preposterous.
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Old 12-08-2017, 04:03   #228
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

To confuse the f..k out of the EU, the U.K. Should start selling non-dyed diesel at all marine fuel stations including for commercial vessels. By the time the EU wakes up and get its knickers in a twist and tries to take the UK to court,they'll be out of the EU, problem solved.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:11   #229
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Confusing what really is simple.

We are talking about the prohibition of dyed fuel for propulsion. That is a directive and it is as I said, it is mandatory in a given period of time and it has to be put in each country's law in a satisfactory way. On the case of dyed full prohibition it was not done satisfactorily on the British law, according to the EU:

"On 14 July 2014, the European Commission announced it was referring the United Kingdom to the European Court of Justice over the use of red-diesel in propelling private pleasure craft on water. It believes the UK is not properly applying EU regulations for the fiscal marking of fuels."

"A "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that all EU countries must achieve. However, it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws on how to reach these goals. "

Then you have regulations that "are a binding legislative act. It must be applied in its entirety across the EU. For example, when the EU wanted to make sure that there are common safeguards on goods imported from outside the EU, the Council adopted a regulation."

Then you have Decisions that are only binding to whom they are addressed:
"A "decision" is binding on those to whom it is addressed (e.g. an EU country or an individual company) and is directly applicable. For example, the Commission issued a decision on the EU participating in the work of various counter-terrorism organisations. The decision related to these organisations only."

And of course, the base of the EU are treaties (at the lack of a constitution) that are just short of that and are on the basis of EU:

The European Union is based on the rule of law. This means that every action taken by the EU is founded on treaties that have been approved voluntarily and democratically by all EU member countries. For example, if a policy area is not cited in a treaty, the Commission cannot propose a law in that area.

"A treaty is a binding agreement between EU member countries. It sets out EU objectives, rules for EU institutions, how decisions are made and the relationship between the EU and its member countries.

Treaties are amended to make the EU more efficient and transparent, to prepare for new member countries and to introduce new areas of cooperation – such as the single currency.

Under the treaties, EU institutions can adopt legislation, which the member countries then implement."


Regarding the aim of the EU to be the creation of a federal state it is not true, at least right now. In what regards European parliament there are some parties that are in favor, some against. Due to the diversity of opinions there is nothing on the EU treaties that says it is aimed to form a federal state.

Here a good description of what is now the EU. That does not mean that, if the majority will agree, the EU would not become in the future a Federal State.

https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...eu-in-brief_en
No, Polux, you simply fail completely to understand and are just making up your own legal theories. I'm not going to waste any more time on this - I posted correct and complete information above and won't bore anyone by repeating it. On the odd chance (very odd chance) you're actually interested in learning something, I'll give you a hint - all EU laws are available online in an easily searchable database. Have a look and see if you can find your regulation forbidding the use of marked diesel. Have fun! Hint #2 - there isn't any. As I wrote - UK has one interpretation and EC another. I even cited WHAT they are interpreting.
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Old 12-08-2017, 19:01   #230
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No, Polux, you simply fail completely to understand and are just making up your own legal theories. ,... Have a look and see if you can find your regulation forbidding the use of marked diesel. Have fun! Hint #2 - there isn't any. As I wrote - UK has one interpretation and EC another. I even cited WHAT they are interpreting.
there you go confusing things: It is not forbidden the use of dyed diesel, it is forbidden the use of dyed diesel for propulsion of pleasure vessels and even the UK government says and acknowledge that:

"Chloe Smith The UK Economic Secretary to the Treasury:

I am today announcing that from 1 April 2012 the use of red diesel to propel private pleasure craft will be allowed only within United Kingdom waters.

From 1 April anyone purchasing red diesel for use as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft will be required to make a declaration that the fuel will be used only within UK waters. "


And of course... "On 14 July 2014, the European Commission announced it was referring the United Kingdom to the European Court of Justice over the use of red-diesel in propelling private pleasure craft on water." "...this makes all the sense if dyed diesel can be used on EU waters for propulsion of pleasure boats
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Old 13-08-2017, 06:41   #231
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
there you go confusing things: It is not forbidden the use of dyed diesel, it is forbidden the use of dyed diesel for propulsion of pleasure vessels and even the UK government says and acknowledge that:

"Chloe Smith The UK Economic Secretary to the Treasury:

I am today announcing that from 1 April 2012 the use of red diesel to propel private pleasure craft will be allowed only within United Kingdom waters.

From 1 April anyone purchasing red diesel for use as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft will be required to make a declaration that the fuel will be used only within UK waters. "


And of course... "On 14 July 2014, the European Commission announced it was referring the United Kingdom to the European Court of Justice over the use of red-diesel in propelling private pleasure craft on water." "...this makes all the sense if dyed diesel can be used on EU waters for propulsion of pleasure boats
Polux, that was a UK recommendation designed to try to satisfy the EC (it did not, because the EC wants no marked diesel in pleasure boats in any EU waters, which still include UK waters for the time being). Not indeed an EU law against using marked diesel as you incorrectly stated several times. There is no such thing. I'm done with this pointless discussion - any more legal advice and I would have to send you a bill. In sailing I'm a merely amateur, but legal stuff, including teaching, I do for money.
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Old 13-08-2017, 11:45   #232
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

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Polux, that was a UK recommendation designed to try to satisfy the EC ....
A recommendation!!!!! I agree that it is useless to discuss with you..As it was stated it is clearly an announcement.

"Chloe Smith The UK Economic Secretary to the Treasury:

"I am today announcing that from 1 April 2012 the use of red diesel to propel private pleasure craft will be allowed only within United Kingdom waters."

And the content is clear. If you take an announcement for a recommendation, well, I really end this discussion here.
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Old 13-08-2017, 13:21   #233
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
My understanding has always been that the EU create regulations and directives, that become law by virtue of aquisition and adoption through the individual member states, which are still sourvereign. That is the difference with for exampel the USA and other federal states.
Just to throw out a bit of confusion, there is a third category of law, in the U.S., beside federal law and individual state law, and that is uniform state law.

In areas where the states agree that the law could be the same from state to state, but whee the federal government has no authority, they have the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws draft the legislation, which is then passed unchanged by each state legislature.

The most well-known example of this is the Uniform Commercial Code.
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Old 13-08-2017, 14:05   #234
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

Thankfully Belgium only has about 35 miles of coastline. If it had been France which "kicked off" then that would be a problem for UK boats going south.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
To confuse the f..k out of the EU, the U.K. Should start selling non-dyed diesel at all marine fuel stations including for commercial vessels. By the time the EU wakes up and get its knickers in a twist and tries to take the UK to court,they'll be out of the EU, problem solved.
Which is what happens with petrol. Commercial users pay full price including road tax and then claim back the tax from HMRC using a form 50. This of course can be checked against income to the business and neatly ties it all together. No income declaration and VAT payments, no refund for petrol.

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Old 13-08-2017, 14:37   #235
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

[QUOTE=Polux;2455619]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Polux, that was a UK recommendation designed to try to satisfy the EC ....[./.QUOTE]

A recommendation!!!!! I agree that it is useless to discuss with you..As it was stated it is clearly an announcement.

"Chloe Smith The UK Economic Secretary to the Treasury:

"I am today announcing that from 1 April 2012 the use of red diesel to propel private pleasure craft will be allowed only within United Kingdom waters."

And the content is clear. If you take an announcement for a recommendation, well, I really end this discussion here.
And you still refuse to cite EU law......
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Old 13-08-2017, 16:21   #236
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

Would not adding yellow or blue dye to your fuel tank solve the issue.
Doesn't seem to be any law against that.
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Old 13-08-2017, 16:57   #237
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

The UCC and similar bodies of law are still "just" state laws in the end. That the states have agreed to accept the regulations created by some joint body, instead of their own legislators, makes no difference. Under US federal law, any legal body that has a power, normally also has the legal right to delegate that power to an underling or subcommittee, and that's all these folks have done.

That's why the tax deniers say the IRS has no authority--but Congress will gladly tell you, that Congress has chosen to delegate that to the IRS, so it is famously legal.

And, there's a saying that the UCC applies only in 49 states. That's right, 49. Because Louisiana state laws follow the common-law traditions of the Napoleonic code, so even with the UCC, there are differences in the way it is implemented there.

Then there are also the eleven insular possessions (war prizes like Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.) and the District of Columbia. None subject to any state laws at all, and none quite the same for all federal purposes.

You will find that in all of the US, there are criminal codes, civil codes, and then there's "administrative code" which is a third totally different monster though.

The EU never quite had the advantage of having a war of secession, and a Mister Lincoln trying to impose with an iron hand. Oh, wait, you've had some Austrian wall-paper hanger try to do that once as well, haven't you? Didn't quite work out the same way...
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Old 13-08-2017, 23:23   #238
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Re: Belgian customs at it again

Much as I would like to reply to a couple of recent posts the truth is the situation has changed, all be it on a temporary basis until the Eurocrats sit down at the table and make another fudge out of this issue in September.

So before the thread goes down hill any further its closed.

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