Belgian customs at it again

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

All other governments make you pay tax on the whole tank. If you want to use untaxed diesel for heating you must put it in a separate tank.

British yachtsmen DO pay tax -- voluntarily -- on the whole tank, when they are leaving to visit other European countries. This is what is recommended by the RYA.

The yachtsmen recently fined in Belgium had reportedly paid 100% taxes and on the whole tank, and had the documents to prove it. This is what made people angry.

Whether or not this is required by EU rules is controversial. The UK position is that it is not required to charge duty on fuel used for heating or electrical power generation on yachts, any more than it is required to charge tax for heating on land. As a lawyer, my own opinion is that the UK reading of the rule is more accurate, and certainly closer to the spirit of the rules. This should be resolved soon and hopefully British yachtsmen will be allowed to resume using legally bought tax-free diesel for heating in other European countries.

[Tomahawk]

I would appreciate an answer as I want to visit Oostend and Blankenberg..

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

Apparently "Swiss Customs" would be at it again, too.

What do you think the purpose of the law is? What is it trying to accomplish? Is it trying to prevent people from using untaxed diesel? Or "marked" diesel?

The aim is to combat (once widespread) diesel fraude.

This is why when passenger cars are checked by customs they will sometims even check the fuel filter. If they find the marker in there they will back tax you (times two) for the whole lifetime of the vehicle.

If I was able to buy "unmarked" diesel, without paying any taxes on it, would that be ok?

That would be OK for you, but the merchant would expose himself to prosecution. And I wonder how he would keep his books in order...

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

British yachtsmen DO pay tax -- voluntarily -- on the whole tank, when they are leaving to visit other European countries. This is what is recommended by the RYA.

The yachtsmen recently fined in Belgium had reportedly paid 100% taxes and on the whole tank, and had the documents to prove it. This is what made people angry.

But did he have a proof that the documents referred to the fuel in his tank?

There is a reason for the existence of this marker. If you could just get away with using marked diesel as long as you can photoshop a convincing document than the whole purpose of the marker is moot.

Whether or not this is required by EU rules is controversial.

The EU commission directive says that member states must take measure so that marked fuel is not imporperly used.

"Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided and, in particular, that the mineral oils in question cannot be used for combustion in the engine of a road-going motor vehicle or kept in its fuel tank unless such use is permitted in specific cases determined by the competent authorities of the Member States."

L_1995291EN.01004601.xml

Note how it says here "marked product", not "untaxed product". So it does not matter if excises have been paid or not.

The UK position is that it is not required to charge duty on fuel used for heating or electrical power generation on yachts, any more than it is required to charge tax for heating on land. As a lawyer, my own opinion is that the UK reading of the rule is more accurate, and certainly closer to the spirit of the rules. This should be resolved soon and hopefully British yachtsmen will be allowed to resume using legally bought tax-free diesel for heating in other European countries.

In some European countries it is also permitted to buy red diesel for generating and heating purposes. But you must keep it in a separate tank. For example: Refrigerated trucks sometimes have a different engine to power the refrigerator. This engine can be powered using red diesel, which will be kept in a separate tank (and which is sold for that purpose at truck stops).
(But in the Netherlands red diesel is illegal for anything but commercial craft, period...)

I am not a Lawyer, but did get some law at school, and remembered from that time that what matters for the law is not logic, justice or whether it makes sense, but just what the law says.

And here it says that "Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided",

not how it does not say "improper use of untaxed products", it says "improper use of the marked product". It is on that basis that the mere possession of red diesel in a tank tank that is not permitted to contain red diesel is an offence in Belgium and in The Netherlands, and that regardless of how much was paid for it.

For a while it was permitted in The Netherlands to use red diesel in agricultural machinery. That caused all kinds of problems with Dutch farmers tending fields in Germany, that kept being hit with big fines by the German customs. In the end it was solved pragmatically, by banning red diesel in The Netherlands as well...

[PhiSig1071]

Wouldn't "improper use of marked product" imply that there is a "proper" use of marked product, after having paid the "proper" taxes?

You admit that the purpose of the law is to avoid tax fraud, so paying taxes on the fuel, any fuel, marked or not, would prevent tax fraud, right?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

Wouldn't "improper use of marked product" imply that there is a "proper" use of marked product, after having paid the "proper" taxes?

Well, most countries deem "putting it in a tank connected to a propulsion engine" as improper use.

You admit that the purpose of the law is to avoid tax fraud, so paying taxes on the fuel, any fuel, marked or not, would prevent tax fraud, right?

If all diesel was sold fully taxed the marker would be superfluous.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...
Whether or not this is required by EU rules is controversial. The UK position is that it is not required to charge duty on fuel used for heating or electrical power generation on yachts, any more than it is required to charge tax for heating on land. As a lawyer, my own opinion is that the UK reading of the rule is more accurate, and certainly closer to the spirit of the rules. This should be resolved soon and hopefully British yachtsmen will be allowed to resume using legally bought tax-free diesel for heating in other European countries.

You will not have problem with using red diesel for heating if you have a separated tank for diesel for heating. Talking about diesel for heating in the summer, when most yachts sail, namely in Belgic waters is ridiculous.

I don't think they will be finishing with the fiscalization but quite the contrary, after a common ground is found. The reason have not to do with sailboats but with mega yachts that are evading the law with the complicity of some countries that turn their eyes to other side. France complies fully with the law, Spain and Italy don't and that results in significant economic harm to the French ports that are being substituted by Spanish and Italian ones by the owners of mega yachts.

Regarding sailing the problem has no meaningful economic repercussions, regarding mega yachts it has, but the law will be equal to all: No dyed diesel and full taxed diesel for propulsion. Separated tanks for heating purposes.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Well, most countries deem "putting it in a tank connected to a propulsion engine" as improper use.



If all diesel was sold fully taxed the marker would be superfluous.

So in this case, since the taxes were fully paid, the marker is superfluous, and the enforcement of the law in this manner is unjust.

[Tomahawk]

I wonder how much trade has been lost by the Belgian sailing clubs and marinas on account of this..

Meanwhile, st Tropez has seen a 30% drop in visitors.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

You will not have problem with using red diesel for heating if you have a separated tank for diesel for heating. Talking about diesel for heating in the summer, when most yachts sail, namely in Belgic waters is ridiculous.

No one talked about using diesel for heating in Belgium. You keep missing the part about where Brits are paying full tax on the full contents of their tanks before going to Europe.

The issue about heating concerns taxes, not fuel colour -- whether the Brits should be allowed to buy, in their own country, diesel for heating yachts without tax, like diesel they might buy to heat their houses. This particular issue will go away with Brexit.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This particular issue will go away with Brexit.

Will Belgium suddenly allow red diesel in British yachts after Brexit? I doubt that.

[Auspicious]

The awful stand in Florida (only recently partially rolled back) limiting the right to anchor seems to me analogous. My approach to the bureaucrats in the Florida capital of Tallahassee is to avoid the state and write them and their maritime constituents. Belgium is being difficult and a similar response may be appropriate.

In my own transits of the North Sea Belgium has not merited a stop anyway. A thoughtful personal boycott is not hard. Writing a letter each time I pass is not much work.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

So in this case, since the taxes were fully paid, the marker is superfluous, and the enforcement of the law in this manner is unjust.

So the onus is on whoever put the superfluous marker in there...

The UK should stop selling red diesel. It's that simple.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No one talked about using diesel for heating in Belgium. You keep missing the part about where Brits are paying full tax on the full contents of their tanks before going to Europe.

The thing is, they have no proof that the fuel in their tanks is what the invoices they show refer to. If you allow people to get away with having red diesel in their tank by just showing a recent invoice you're opening the gates to massive diesel fraud. Diesel fraud was (and is) a big problem in many countries.

The issue about heating concerns taxes, not fuel colour -- whether the Brits should be allowed to buy, in their own country, diesel for heating yachts without tax, like diesel they might buy to heat their houses. This particular issue will go away with Brexit.

The issue is about fuel colour. It is not permitted to have marked fuel in a tank connected to a propulsion engine. That is the law. It's the law in all of the EU. That some instances turn a blind eye does not change that.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

So the onus is on whoever put the superfluous marker in there...

The UK should stop selling red diesel. It's that simple.

Did you forget that he UK will be out of the EU soon? This is a petty theft.

When the UK is out... Belgium will be sidelined by the Brits. They dont forget this injustice.

In the meantime... Belgium should remember who buys their beer... and that will not be sold in the UK when the price goes up.