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Old 14-08-2013, 16:41   #76
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

I'm trying to understand the mentality of some on this forum who believe they can tell who should be allowed to sail offshore and who should not. What boat is acceptable and what is not? And what list of items should be present on a well found vessel and what should not. Anything in life that requires skills requires practice to hone these skills. And, during that process there will inevitably be mistakes that are made. This is how one gains experience. There is always the first sail, the first broach, the first knockdown, the first running under tows, the first torn sail, the first dragged anchor, the first offshore trip, the first mechanical breakdown in a long line of "firsts." How does one gain practical knowledge at sea if one never moves to the next level? How do you move to the next level if you don't try? How can you become competent if you don't do things wrong so that you can know how things are done right? Any sailor worth his salt has experienced a long list of "wrongs" before he/she starts getting things "right." There are some people in life who are so ego infected that they will always deride those who fail and present themselves as the "standard bearer" of acceptance irrespective of their field of endeavor whether it be sailing, sports, business or music. These self appointed standard bearers really are masking their own insecurities and eventually will come to terms with failures in their lives given enough time. And, it has been my experience in dealing with them that most are "paper tigers" that fold the easiest when confronted with real life challenges and faced with a truly critical situation. Life is a long road of challenges. You cannot succeed in life without failing. And, if you listen to the "paper tigers" you'll never leave the dock. Good luck, good sailing and to those who are sitting on the dock and listening to the pundit, jump in the water . . . its fine.
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Old 14-08-2013, 17:36   #77
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I'm trying to understand the mentality of some on this forum who believe they can tell who should be allowed to sail offshore and who should not. What boat is acceptable and what is not? And what list of items should be present on a well found vessel and what should not. Anything in life that requires skills requires practice to hone these skills. And, during that process there will inevitably be mistakes that are made. This is how one gains experience. There is always the first sail, the first broach, the first knockdown, the first running under tows, the first torn sail, the first dragged anchor, the first offshore trip, the first mechanical breakdown in a long line of "firsts." How does one gain practical knowledge at sea if one never moves to the next level? How do you move to the next level if you don't try? How can you become competent if you don't do things wrong so that you can know how things are done right? Any sailor worth his salt has experienced a long list of "wrongs" before he/she starts getting things "right." There are some people in life who are so ego infected that they will always deride those who fail and present themselves as the "standard bearer" of acceptance irrespective of their field of endeavor whether it be sailing, sports, business or music. These self appointed standard bearers really are masking their own insecurities and eventually will come to terms with failures in their lives given enough time. And, it has been my experience in dealing with them that most are "paper tigers" that fold the easiest when confronted with real life challenges and faced with a truly critical situation. Life is a long road of challenges. You cannot succeed in life without failing. And, if you listen to the "paper tigers" you'll never leave the dock. Good luck, good sailing and to those who are sitting on the dock and listening to the pundit, jump in the water . . . its fine.

What he said.
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Old 14-08-2013, 17:57   #78
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Re: Another crew loses their sailboat

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People read the stories of the 4% inexperienced who manage to get a boat across oceans. The 96% who don't start, don't finish, or die, are not writing as many books and blogs.

Yeah. "I *Tried to* Sail Around the World" isn't going to get you a book deal ...

There was a case off the west coast of Florida not that long ago. A woman who had sailed about one year bought a Flicka (stout boat, but only 20 long) and was going to sail around the year.

Worse, she locked herself into a start date of -- (@@) New Year's Day, often a poor time of year to be on the open water around Florida.

The weather was terrible but she had notified the press and gathered some other PR for herself and felt she had to leave that day.

I think she made about 50 miles before she turned around and came back.

Believe it or not, she wasn't ready to do the trip ...
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Old 14-08-2013, 17:57   #79
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Hello cute little kid crawling on the floor... lets stand you up... Hohoho... bit wobbly on the old pins are we not... not to worry... I'll give you a good shove and you can run to that table....
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Old 14-08-2013, 18:00   #80
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

Hiya Boatie! Now, you sound like W C Fields and kids; he used to mock kids!

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Old 14-08-2013, 18:07   #81
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Hiya Boatie! Now, you sound like W C Fields and kids; he used to mock kids!

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Old 14-08-2013, 18:13   #82
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I'm trying to understand the mentality of some on this forum who believe they can tell who should be allowed to sail offshore and who should not. What boat is acceptable and what is not? And what list of items should be present on a well found vessel and what should not. Anything in life that requires skills requires practice to hone these skills. And, during that process there will inevitably be mistakes that are made. This is how one gains experience. There is always the first sail, the first broach, the first knockdown, the first running under tows, the first torn sail, the first dragged anchor, the first offshore trip, the first mechanical breakdown in a long line of "firsts." How does one gain practical knowledge at sea if one never moves to the next level? How do you move to the next level if you don't try? How can you become competent if you don't do things wrong so that you can know how things are done right? Any sailor worth his salt has experienced a long list of "wrongs" before he/she starts getting things "right." There are some people in life who are so ego infected that they will always deride those who fail and present themselves as the "standard bearer" of acceptance irrespective of their field of endeavor whether it be sailing, sports, business or music. These self appointed standard bearers really are masking their own insecurities and eventually will come to terms with failures in their lives given enough time. And, it has been my experience in dealing with them that most are "paper tigers" that fold the easiest when confronted with real life challenges and faced with a truly critical situation. Life is a long road of challenges. You cannot succeed in life without failing. And, if you listen to the "paper tigers" you'll never leave the dock. Good luck, good sailing and to those who are sitting on the dock and listening to the pundit, jump in the water . . . its fine.

I have commented on this also. You can't learn to sail from reading books. You have to get out there, and to some extent you have to be on your own to truly learn from the experience.

I learned more about sailing the one day I shouldn't have been out there than I learned in all the classes I took, all the books I read (a caveat there), all the times I sailed with more experienced sailors either on my boat or theirs.

The caveat is that my boat was overpowered and trying to broach and I realized what was going on *because I read a book* (Sailing for Dummies, IMO the dummy is the new sailor who doesn't read that book). Realized what was going on and managed to control the boat under pretty difficult conditions.

I would be the first to say I shouldn't have been there (and wouldn't have been out there had I looked at the weather forecast instead of relying on other boats I was with to decide for me) -- but the experience made me a much better sailor.

It did in two ways -- from what I learned about handling sailing in tough circumstances, and in learning that not only did I not know everything (I already new that) -- I didn't even know what I needed to know sometimes.

And with sailing, you *can't* learn everything you need to know before you get out there. So mistakes ARE going to happen. They will, period.

I think people should be applauded sometimes just for having the guts to leave the dock knowing they may well face situations they aren't quite prepared for -- but they leave anyway -- and mostly, come back.

The trick is to not stretch yourself *too much* each time -- but you don't always have control over that.
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Old 14-08-2013, 18:30   #83
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

It's hard to learn from books if you lack the context of what's being read. It's one thing to be explained something, and another to experience it. After some experience, the reading material becomes more easily digested. I think reading and experience together is a good way to learn. After experience, sure there will be redundant information you already learned, but there will be information to fill in the gaps.
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Old 14-08-2013, 19:02   #84
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

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. With everything I've learned over this refit I can hardly imagine going out to sea on a boat I didn't know EVERYTHING about.
Except sailing.

Often times people who refit for years never go sailing. One doesnt learn how to sail in a dockyard.

Good luck and enjoy the sailing.
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Old 14-08-2013, 19:34   #85
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

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It's hard to learn from books if you lack the context of what's being read. It's one thing to be explained something, and another to experience it. After some experience, the reading material becomes more easily digested. I think reading and experience together is a good way to learn. After experience, sure there will be redundant information you already learned, but there will be information to fill in the gaps.

Apparently I was able to read the material and translate it to real life. I recognized that the boat was overpowered and that she was trying to broach at the bottoms of waves. I told my crew to depower the mainsail at the bottom (he refused, thought it was FUN to have the boat turn and heave like that!) until things started flying around the cabin.

With no safe reefing system on the boat and a jammed headsail I turned her more into the waves and she settled down considerably.

I read about these things in a book before experiencing them -- thank goodness.

I also recognized the danger of the lee shore, another reason to turn her (crewmate didn't like that decision). Not only had he not read the book, but he hadn't studied a chart as I had asked him to.

I was very glad to have read the book and to recognize what was going on. Other boats around us didn't get what was going on. We were in radio contact and I was getting questions like "why is your boat hard to control?"

Those people had a lot of experience and I'm surprised they didn't see what was going on, but it was the feel on the rudder that really gave me the crucial information -- I could feel all the pressure go off her as she turned to try to drown herself. Until that day, as they say, I had "only read about it."

I'm supporting the fellow who said that it's easy to point fingers at people who make mistakes, but we came back with the boat and the sails intact and no one hurt (although I did want to clobber the person who crewed with me).

You've got to go out there, and you're going to experience all sorts of things for the first time -- some days will be packed with lessons.
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Old 14-08-2013, 20:25   #86
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That is your prerogative...
However a great many 'Newbie Voyagers' don't spend 15yrs sailing around in a 27ft Catalina before buying a 40+ftr... they just buy the 40+ftr... like these folk we're talking about... and can't cope..
Same with the folk selling their 40+ft luxury Cat after just 2 yrs for the same reason...
But there we go... that's life..
Point taken.
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Old 14-08-2013, 20:26   #87
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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I'm trying to understand the mentality of some on this forum who believe they can tell who should be allowed to sail offshore and who should not. What boat is acceptable and what is not? And what list of items should be present on a well found vessel and what should not. Anything in life that requires skills requires practice to hone these skills. And, during that process there will inevitably be mistakes that are made. This is how one gains experience. There is always the first sail, the first broach, the first knockdown, the first running under tows, the first torn sail, the first dragged anchor, the first offshore trip, the first mechanical breakdown in a long line of "firsts." How does one gain practical knowledge at sea if one never moves to the next level? How do you move to the next level if you don't try? How can you become competent if you don't do things wrong so that you can know how things are done right? Any sailor worth his salt has experienced a long list of "wrongs" before he/she starts getting things "right." There are some people in life who are so ego infected that they will always deride those who fail and present themselves as the "standard bearer" of acceptance irrespective of their field of endeavor whether it be sailing, sports, business or music. These self appointed standard bearers really are masking their own insecurities and eventually will come to terms with failures in their lives given enough time. And, it has been my experience in dealing with them that most are "paper tigers" that fold the easiest when confronted with real life challenges and faced with a truly critical situation. Life is a long road of challenges. You cannot succeed in life without failing. And, if you listen to the "paper tigers" you'll never leave the dock. Good luck, good sailing and to those who are sitting on the dock and listening to the pundit, jump in the water . . . its fine.
Definitely what he said!
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Old 14-08-2013, 21:05   #88
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

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Except sailing.

Often times people who refit for years never go sailing. One doesnt learn how to sail in a dockyard.

Good luck and enjoy the sailing.
If you are stuck in a boatyard then you can still hopefully sail in the local racing or on friends boats if you are near any of that. We have sailed our boat quite a bit while working on her, even taking her 160 miles to Florida and back, and have been sailing with the local races on others boats for over a year about once a week. There are usually ways you can still get in sailing experience while working on your boat if you schedule efficiently.
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Old 14-08-2013, 21:12   #89
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Re: Another Crew Loses their Sailboat

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I'm trying to understand the mentality of some on this forum who believe they can tell who should be allowed to sail offshore and who should not. What boat is acceptable and what is not? And what list of items should be present on a well found vessel and what should not. Anything in life that requires skills requires practice to hone these skills. And, during that process there will inevitably be mistakes that are made. This is how one gains experience. There is always the first sail, the first broach, the first knockdown, the first running under tows, the first torn sail, the first dragged anchor, the first offshore trip, the first mechanical breakdown in a long line of "firsts." How does one gain practical knowledge at sea if one never moves to the next level? How do you move to the next level if you don't try? How can you become competent if you don't do things wrong so that you can know how things are done right? Any sailor worth his salt has experienced a long list of "wrongs" before he/she starts getting things "right." There are some people in life who are so ego infected that they will always deride those who fail and present themselves as the "standard bearer" of acceptance irrespective of their field of endeavor whether it be sailing, sports, business or music. These self appointed standard bearers really are masking their own insecurities and eventually will come to terms with failures in their lives given enough time. And, it has been my experience in dealing with them that most are "paper tigers" that fold the easiest when confronted with real life challenges and faced with a truly critical situation. Life is a long road of challenges. You cannot succeed in life without failing. And, if you listen to the "paper tigers" you'll never leave the dock. Good luck, good sailing and to those who are sitting on the dock and listening to the pundit, jump in the water . . . its fine.

There are standards in place by governments to determine who should be allowed to captain a vessel with paying passengers. There are standards in place for all the other various crew positions. There are standards for equipment, construction, maintenance, and operating procedures.

These standards to not guarantee safety, but one only has to look at the record of (as an example) US sport fishers versus ones in Mexico.

It's really not that hard to say "you should have sufficient experience, you should have a rig capable of the conditions you will encounter, the boat shouldn't break, and you should have enough safety gear to support a rescue."

In the professional maritime world, in the US, there is little ambiguity and it is spelled out in the Code of Federal Regulations. A lot in there pertains to individual pleasure craft as well.

So as much as I'd like to get "it's all relative man!" and just let whatever happen, I have no problem walking over to some idiot with a crappy boat and trying to convince him that he should do more sailing and stop futzing with the wifi extender and replace his chainplates.
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Old 15-08-2013, 00:15   #90
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..........

I also recognized the danger of the lee shore, another reason to turn her (crewmate didn't like that decision). Not only had he not read the book, but he hadn't studied a chart as I had asked him to.
D
I'm not a salty sailor, I'm just an average one
BUT as the skipper I will never asked somebody to study a chart for me.
I study the chart myself, ALWAYS, no exeption.
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