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Old 28-05-2014, 16:01   #781
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Abandoning "Be Good Too" the builder responds.

by Gregor Tarjan, designer of the Aeroyacht ALPHA 42 catamaran "Be Good Too"

ABANDONING BE GOOD TOO: The Builder Responds | Sailfeed

Somehow it sounds unpretty to me...

But I want to ask, if it is normal (in US boatyard practice) that designer leave all engineering side of the project to the builder?
I just want to know who the designer is in this practice, what is his scope of involvement and responsibility for the whole project...
I tried to understand it from the beginning of this thread, but to not to much success...
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Old 28-05-2014, 16:24   #782
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Did the owner buy another Alpha with the insurance money??

Would you buy one unless the rudder stock diameter is increased??

A good builder learns from his mistakes.
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Old 28-05-2014, 16:32   #783
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Did the owner buy another Alpha with the insurance money??
If so, I assume we would be informed about it by now
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Old 28-05-2014, 20:14   #784
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Umm - I'm reading the article and immediately see some issues. He states:

"On the final test I, personally, sailed the boat under very harsh conditions by sailing it shorthanded, counterclockwise around Long Island in blizzard conditions. Outside temp’s averaged -20 Fahrenheit (-28 Celsius) winds were up to 40 knots and (short) seas about 10′ high. My plan was to test to the breaking point. A constant sheet of inch-thick ice covered the deck and at one point the boat was buried under 30″ of snow. "

I'm sorry but never in this entire winter did Long Island experience -20 degrees F temps even when we got into the worst of it in late January/February. We didn't even have any snow in December and only 7.1" in January on the 2nd so I have no idea where he was sailing but it was not around this Long Island. I really wonder when he did this last test?

Here is the link to Accuweather and my town's weather in December. You can click through it to see the January weather as well. I'm in Northport on the north shore of Long Island about a block and a half from the water, about 1/4 mile from the Long Island Sound.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/nor...013&view=table

ETA - I know Hank brought his own tools on our boat when he delivered it from Fort Lauderdale to Northport. The builder comments on the owner not having tools but I know that Hank would have had them on board.
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Old 28-05-2014, 20:34   #785
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I don't believe he sailed a boat with temps. like that. The wind chill under those conditions would have been -49c. Exposed skin freezes very quickly at those temps. and it would be almost immediate with any spray. Actually at -28c the spray would be ice almost immediately. I can't believe it. If he sailed in weather conditions even approaching those stated above he is an idiot.
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Old 28-05-2014, 21:28   #786
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Did the owner buy another Alpha with the insurance money??
The article states the owner was promptly paid by insurance and he now owns a catamaran "from another builder"

I too agree that the builders comments about sailing around Long Island in -28f and with 30" of snow make the rest of the article suspicious... I can't imagine wind-chill making it that cold nor can I imagine 30" of ice build-up being possible.

If he said it felt like -28f, well, that I'll buy!
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Old 28-05-2014, 22:35   #787
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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He makes some valid points...
Yes, Phil, but there are also some inconsistencies, to my mind. If the crew were as rushed and unprepared as he alleges, I'm not too surprised they came a-cropper. Once again, I'm struck at how boat abandonments are rarely of "the front fell off" variety (although Cheeki Rafiki might fall into this category, more or less, although they had clear evidence of ingress), but are more often of the "cascade of failures and poor decisions" variety.

As if one could sail into a narrowing strait of options.
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Old 29-05-2014, 02:03   #788
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pirate Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
Yes, Phil, but there are also some inconsistencies, to my mind. If the crew were as rushed and unprepared as he alleges, I'm not too surprised they came a-cropper. Once again, I'm struck at how boat abandonments are rarely of "the front fell off" variety (although Cheeki Rafiki might fall into this category, more or less, although they had clear evidence of ingress), but are more often of the "cascade of failures and poor decisions" variety.

As if one could sail into a narrowing strait of options.
I'm not overly concerned with the builders claims as I called BS on the test sail conditions way back when..
My opinions.. also stated back then are simple..
The decision of route to take.. allegedly through pressure from the owner (assumption) were foolish for a claimed very experienced skipper on a No:1 build..
As far as I'm concerned its down to the skipper.. if an owner tried
to dominate me on choice of route and schedule.. I'd walk away.. I've got nothing to prove to anyone.. and I'm not that desperate for money.. jobs come and go.. only got one life..
A coastal and ICW route down to Beaufort NC before jumping out may have taken 4-5 days longer but would have saved a lot of stress and the boat.
A comedy of errors
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Old 29-05-2014, 06:48   #789
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Agree with Boatman.
Sure, parts of the boat could have been more robust. But to leave NY in January of one of the worst winters we've had? Sorry- but any boat could have been seriously damaged or lost in those conditions if sailed to a schedule. I also was very intrigued by the issue of sailing with suboptimal sail plan due to faulty jib lead. Again, could have been averted if not for schedule.
Just to get to warm weather for 2-3 months before heading back north?
Yes, boat was 5 months late, and I am sure the owner was anxious to get going. But like Boatman says- go the safe route down to NC and shake down the boat with a series of coastal hops...

It just sounds so cavalier- abandon the boat with no homing device (to make sure it's lost and can get insurance payout quickly, rather than having to repair boat at own cost?), buy another cat, keep going. For the rest of us who exercise prudence and abhor schedules when making serious passages (which this certainly was), it just jacks up our insurance rates.... and worries me about future regulation, etc on going offshore.
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Old 29-05-2014, 07:23   #790
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Tarjan is a hyperbole machine. He can't help himself. Even when what he spouts can be quickly vetted with facts and easy reasoning, he keeps spouting the hyperbole. I really don't think he sees things differently than he says them - he is a Walter Mitty delusional.

How about his claim of having to run 3 diesel engines 24/7 for two solid weeks to keep them from freezing as he battled the "Arctic Gale"? The boat's tankage was 125 gallons. You do the math…

Mark
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Old 29-05-2014, 09:22   #791
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Posters on this site are very quick to attack small details that are not the substance or the issue ie exact temperatures and snow accumulations. If you look on the Aeroyacht web site blog as I did when they were posted you will see the postings of the trip around Long Island. There were heavy snow storms as in the pictures and possibly some large drifts in the cockpit. There were very cold temperature and wind chills with icing as seen in the photos. The sail was done as a stringent test. They did dock, refuel provision along the way. They ran the Benny for heat much of the time. Counting tankage is stupid.

I have sailed the LI Sound in late Dec, Jan , Feb in 30-40 knot conditions pulling into marinas thru skim ice and it tests a boats strengths and weaknesses. Anything that was going to break did. After sailing 50k miles over 13 years I choose not to do that kind of sailing now. I prefer warmer conditions.

If any other boat had made the same decisions the results would have been similar. Give the builder a break and let them improve their product as the should and I am sure will.
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Old 29-05-2014, 10:03   #792
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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A comedy of errors
Or a tragedy of hubris. I can't argue with you in any particular. I did a delivery in early November in the western Atlantic closer to a decaying hurricane than I would've preferred (it didn't half make the boat move, though!) and if you had what was essentially a prototype, I would consider rushing things to be imprudent at best.

If you are in that much of a hurry, jets leave six times a day, I say.
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Old 29-05-2014, 12:02   #793
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Posters on this site are very quick to attack small details that are not the substance or the issue ie exact temperatures and snow accumulations. If you look on the Aeroyacht web site blog as I did when they were posted you will see the postings of the trip around Long Island. There were heavy snow storms as in the pictures and possibly some large drifts in the cockpit. There were very cold temperature and wind chills with icing as seen in the photos. The sail was done as a stringent test. They did dock, refuel provision along the way. They ran the Benny for heat much of the time. Counting tankage is stupid.
So where did they dock and refuel? Not one marina that I know of is open in the winter for fueling in most of the areas that I frequent. Maybe there were places along the south shore but certainly, I don't know of any marinas that have fuel that are open in the winter on the North Shore. Fishermen bring tanks of fuel to the boat from the regular stations because you can't buy fuel on the water anywhere around here. But honestly, when someone says they had 30" of snow, when the most that fell is 7", and they had -20 degrees when the low was 2 degrees, it makes me question the integrity of the person writing the article and wondering just what else in the article is hyperbole as well. Heck, the pictures are posted on the site were from January 2nd and the storm actually came overnight January 2nd to the 3rd. We had a little snow on the 2nd but we were out driving in it and only had MAYBE a couple of inches on the ground at the most - certainly no 30"!
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Old 29-05-2014, 12:32   #794
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

His description of the weather during his test sail (and comparison to a tanker that was out in the area where the boat was lost years before) are laughable. He also makes no suggestion that the rudders are going to be improved - rather he quotes the skipper who he attacks as saying 'no rudder would have survived'. He suggests that the window leaks had been rectified when clearly they had not. He refers to the rudder stocks being seized at the bearings, but makes no mention of the fact that one of them spun on the stock! He also neglects to mention that the one rudder head shown in a photo from the boat prior to abandonment appeared to have no rudder stops, nor that it appeared to have (and was described as having) only a thin pin holding the rudder head onto the rudder stock. Finally, he neglects to mention that one of the rudders had apparently failed prior to be struck by this wave.

Were errors made by the crew? Probably. However, it would have provided me with much more confidence in the boat and the manufacturer if he had not resorted to hyperbole about the test conditions and if he had described some improvements to the steering system and weather sealing in future boats.

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Old 29-05-2014, 16:07   #795
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Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I had a similar situation with an engine not staring during rough weather a few years back on my first off shore trip. The engine would not turn over. It turned out that waves had slowly pushed water in the exhaust hose filling the water separator and backing up into the cylinder with an open exhaust valve. This bound up the engine since you can not compress water.The starter overheated burning it out and creating an electric smell. This may be what happened on Be Good Too.
If the engine does not start right up you could have this problem. Don't keep trying to start it.The answer is when offshore during rough weather when the wind noise drowns out the sound of a cranking engine to send a crew member closer to the engine being start to ensure it is cranking. If it is not cranking you need to remove the exhaust hose and dump the water into the bilge. The remove either the glow plugs or injectors and crank the engine with the fuel shut off. It is messy so cover the openings with a rag. Then reassemble. It will then run but you may have already damaged the connecting rods so you will need to do a compression check.

I have done this repair to get diesels running while hundreds of miles off shore. I increased the rise in the exhaust manifold, added an additional foot to the exhaust loop and installed a ball shutoff valve to prevent water ever backing up in the exhaust again.

Bill
I'm having trouble understanding this statement. Compressing water in a cylinder under the compression stroke cycle with a starter motor would not damage a connecting rod. It just doesn't have that much umph. Even if it did, a compression test would not reveal that. Perhaps you mean salt water damaging the cylinder walls or compression rings.

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I think it is unlikely that you could hydraulic lock a good engine in this scenario. The exhaust valve is only open on the upstroke therefore on start the water that drained into the cylinder through the open exhaust valve is pushed out before it closes.

If the exhaust valve is leaky then water could drip into the cylinder when closed and stopped on a different part of the cycle. Then on start you could bend a rod if other cylinders fire. If you are lucky the engine will not be able to turn at all in this case.
When the piston is at TDC, it's about a .010" gap. On the up stroke during compression, both valves are closed. It take a minute amount of water to lock a cylinder up. I have seen it twice now and it is usually a poorly placed loop or thru-hull location.

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I had the motor lock up 3 times and Volvo replaced the engine twice. The certified Volvo mechanic had no idea why water was getting Ito the pistons. Finally Port Engineers in Key Largo fixed the problem. They installed a custom riser extension and found the anti siphon break was in the wrong location.

It definitely can and does happen and you will burn out the starter motor trying to start the engine and smell a burning electrical smell. I believe this is what happened.

Bill
Easy to believe a Volvo Mech has no idea . The things is though...If you are trying to start an engine and it does not want to turn...STOP. repeatedly trying is not going to change a thing.
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