Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-01-2014, 05:10   #616
Registered User
 
Dave852's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tavernier, Fl
Boat: Outremer 50
Posts: 657
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave852
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Looks as though you were fortunate that your rudders were jammed in a relatively straight ahead configuration,...unlike those of the alpha cat in this discussion.

Yes we were fortunate that they were only about 10 degrees off center ( both of them). And yes it was unlike the Alfa cat in that they could turn to starboard under sail or port under power as per Charles's report with their one jammed rudder that we have no info as to how far off center it was jammed. In my case full reverse and full forward on the other was not enough to prevent us from going on a port circle. Now if you want to point out how my situation is different go ahead, like water temperature, wave action, we had both motors available etc... But the post was really in response to the previous interest in how drogues are used and the possibility of using other methods such as buckets etc...
__________________

Dave852 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2014, 05:39   #617
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Alert Bay, Vancouver Island
Boat: 35ft classic ketch/yawl.
Posts: 931
Images: 4
Send a message via Skype™ to roland stockham
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Her is a though or two;
There is no such thing as a 'bad' boat (well almost, ive seen a few homebuild steel and cement jobs...)
All boats are build to excel in some areas but not in others, an open 60' does not make a good family cruiser!
If you build a boat to be exellent in the bahama sholes how good will it be in a high latitude northerly gale?
So - there is no reason not to make lovely cool spacious cats for tropical cruising but if the yard is not in the Caribbean how do you get the finished boat to it's cruising destination (yes I know you get a diluivery crew to risk all for little pay on a boat not equipped or suitable for ocean passages)
It is January, she was a long way out in some bad weather. Should we be asking a few more serching questions about what are boats are designed for, not to be critical but to ensure we stick to what they do best.
The European watercraft directive was a disaster (my opinion) because nobody would ecept the limitations. Istead of being a guide to what the boat would excel at it became a test - all 'good' boats had to be 'A' rated (open ocean sailing) which is like saying a ferry should be good as an icebreaker.
Just a though, don't know the boat and havent seen a full situation analysis but it sounds like the boat got hit by a heavy sea, nocked sideways and bent both rudders. Typical damage to be expected with a coastal boat in big seas.
__________________

__________________
roland stockham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2014, 06:07   #618
Registered User
 
Dave852's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tavernier, Fl
Boat: Outremer 50
Posts: 657
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave852
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Just a though, don't know the boat and havent seen a full situation analysis but it sounds like the boat got hit by a heavy sea, nocked sideways and bent both rudders. Typical damage to be expected with a coastal boat in big seas.

One bent and one spinning like a weather vane per the current account. That's the problem when the thread gets to long:-)
Dave852 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2014, 06:10   #619
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
The European watercraft directive was a disaster (my opinion) because nobody would ecept the limitations. Istead of being a guide to what the boat would excel at it became a test - all 'good' boats had to be 'A' rated (open ocean sailing) which is like saying a ferry should be good as an icebreaker.
Just a though, don't know the boat and havent seen a full situation analysis but it sounds like the boat got hit by a heavy sea, nocked sideways and bent both rudders. Typical damage to be expected with a coastal boat in big seas.
I think you demonstrate the common misconceptions around the Recreational Craft Directive and particulary Category A. ( the Alpha wasn't build under the RCD anyway )

The primarily requirement under the RCD for all categories above D , is that the manufacturer has a documented quality system. A bit like ISO 9000 this really doesn't guarantee that you aren't building crap, just that its documented crap.

When the RCD was introduced , there were little or no actual construction standards so the RCD actually only mandates the boat meet a series of vague requirements. reference is made that confirming to relevant ISO is a way of demonstrating compliance , but you can demonstrate compliance in any number of other ways that the notifying body agrees to.

Also ISO is an emerging set of standards , that do not cover all areas of boat construction and in places where it does , there are ongoing changes. Hence the RCD does not tie down all areas of the boats construction

Hence the purpose of the RCD was clearly to agree a common " minimum " standard not to set best practice, setting a legal best practice would have forced costs onto smaller companies without consideration of the ability to pay. ABYC can set best practice because its not a mandatory legal system.

Hence a good quality cat A boat can be very different to a poor quality Cat A , this was always the case , ie caveat emptor. Simply saying this Cat A boat is the same as that Cat A boat is to misunderstand the RCD.

Note that the CAT A requirements do NOT equate to a particular sea area of operation , even though they are widely mis interpreted to do so.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2014, 06:15   #620
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

By the way , it amuses me the critics of abandoning the boat , given what happened , I suspect very few if any people could have done anything different.

And no, delivery skippers are not superhuman, not mercenaries whose lives are of less value cause there're being paid.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2014, 15:45   #621
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

The thread drifted and sunk
SAR mission not expected
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2014, 16:02   #622
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 156
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
My last word on this thread that turned out to be the seamanship and technical knowledge show..
The crew did a good job, but given their experience one would expect a bit more than that. Lying ahull is not a good idea on a cat, if the waves exceed yr beam length you are at serious risk of be flipped over, particularly on a cat with fixed keel.. Para anchor has similar risks and I wouldn't try this option with this unproven cat.(do you believe that the cleats are any stronger than the rudders ??)
Drogue could have been tried but there is no reference. Maybe they didn't have it..

I was never scared of wind , a bit more from sea state but dead scared in some cases that the boat would not hold up. If I was the skipper and seing the boat falling apart (both engines not working, if working not charging !!!, both rudders fouled, taking water without even knowing where from, genset not working, battens are out of main sail, etc) and the worse of weather is still to come, I would definately do what they did.

It's sad for Mr Tarjan, but selling or sailing cats is different than making catamarans.


Cheers

Yeloya


The boat is definately not built up to these condition.

Just a curiosity, what is the equivalent of CE certificate for europenan boats in the US ? Can anybody make his boat and set sail offshore there ??
In the US you can build your own boat, and go sailing offshore. Google 'Flyin Hawaiian' is a prime example. Unfortunately it is not the only one.
__________________
EzzyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2014, 21:04   #623
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,141
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post
Attachment 74270[ATTACH]74271

Bend or break ! You choose ? This was 70mm on a 43ft mono
Where did you source those photos? And any more details about the failure?
Brian
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 14:29   #624
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I've been away for a bit, but glad to see that many of the final posts on this thread:

1. Support skipper Hank Schmitt, including one former client who had him bring their boat back successfully after a rudder failure offshore.
2. Make clear that dropping the rudder would likely be impossible if the stock was bent and seized in the bearing (and lets face it, we don't know if their stated efforts at repairing the steering did not include an analysis of this).
3. Suggest that steering with buckets, or drogues with one rudder bent and locked at a severe angle would be difficult, if not impossible for 300 miles on a direct course (especially with a forecast for worsening conditions).
4. Allow that delivery skippers are not gods and must consider the lives and safety of the owners and crew (and their imput) before making any decision regarding abandonment; indeed, acknowledging that with the owners on board, their decision on that issue would carry the day.
5. Confirm that numerous other production cats have equivalent rudder stocks and likely would also have suffered damage if forced backwards in heavy seas.

The simple fact is (as some tried to suggest at the outset), none of us were there. None of us know whether the rudders on other cats would have survived the forces in question. None of us know what efforts were made to repair the steering (although we do know that efforts were made in this regard) or whether any of our suggested plans of action would have worked.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 14:32   #625
Marine Service Provider

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Marmaris
Boat: FP Orana 2010, Lipari 2011, Hélia 2013, Catana C 47 2013
Posts: 1,029
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Does anybody know where the boat has ended ? and in what shape ??

Yeloya
__________________
yeloya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 14:37   #626
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged


WOW ! ! !

Roma locuta, causa finita....
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 14:47   #627
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Does anybody know where the boat has ended ? and in what shape ??

Yeloya
No sign of her yet. "Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" is presumed to be drifting with prevailing wind and Gulf Stream current going north. Projections would put her getting close to Nantucket
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Alpha 42 Be Good Too drift.jpg
Views:	243
Size:	88.4 KB
ID:	74859  
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 14:49   #628
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 108
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post

WOW ! ! !

Roma locuta, causa finita....
Rome has or Belleville ?
__________________
Jimmy Jazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 15:47   #629
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sail any boats from 28 to 60 ft
Posts: 530
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Any news from Hank, Charles, or Owners?

I am sure they must have a GPS tracker on the boat?
__________________
rockDAWG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2014, 15:53   #630
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Jazz View Post
Rome has or Belleville ?

Is there an difference really???
Did not know...
__________________

__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Aeroyacht Alpha 42, Alpha 42, Gregor Tarjan, offshore, rescue, yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.