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Old 20-01-2014, 08:38   #556
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Well maybe you're right. You can also go for aluminium bar (a lot stronger dan 316: Jefa Rudder bearings).

I'm trying to explain here that a large diameter is so much stronger (8 fold from 38 to 76 mm) than a small diameter. The proof stress of aluminium (0.2%) is twice as high as that for 'normal' 316. 316 Is hard to cut and machine but not very strong.
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Old 20-01-2014, 08:42   #557
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

And Roger spec'd out 2021 stainless alloy instead of standard 316, so I think we are good.
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Old 20-01-2014, 08:45   #558
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Thanks, we think so too! The quality and level of detail he has engineered along with a builder who wants to do it right, (almost regardless of cost!) is very re-assuring.
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Old 20-01-2014, 08:46   #559
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Sure, but you can't keyway a pipe, let alone double keyway it. A bolt is just silly.
What's wrong with a thru bolt? Same as all those clevis pins holding up all those masts isn't it?
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Old 20-01-2014, 08:51   #560
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Thanks, we think so too! The quality and level of detail he has engineered along with a builder who wants to do it right, (almost regardless of cost!) is very re-assuring.
Nothing but the best comes from china I'm sure that's everyone else's experience as well right?
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Old 20-01-2014, 09:08   #561
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I'm unfamiliar with 2021; is that an aluminium alloy? The all important factor is the 0.2% yield stress (200 N/mm2 for 316).
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Old 20-01-2014, 09:20   #562
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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What's wrong with a thru bolt? Same as all those clevis pins holding up all those masts isn't it?

You're asking a pin or bolt to take a lot of load in sheer, especially if its a spade rudder. And you are repeatedly loading it in opposite directions, the worst kind of stress cycle for metals. Clevis pins simply prevent rotation or extraction of a part, they bear no load. Not the same thing at all.
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Old 20-01-2014, 09:21   #563
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I think the 2012 is a high strength aluminum.
http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...c1936bc&ckck=1

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/820293.pdf
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Old 20-01-2014, 09:33   #564
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I was going to use aluminum bar, but most NAs advise against it as the cycles to fatigue of alloy is much lower than stainless. I'm sure it would be fine, but not 2" on a 45' cat.

And I have no desire to bash china, but I would have serious reservations about buying a $600,000 prototype yacht from them unless I had a qualified independent agent inspecting the entire production process and my purchase was qualified on the approval of said inspector.
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Old 20-01-2014, 09:37   #565
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Well - I got up to page 14 before I gave up. Interestingly enough, I was up for this delivery job as an "owner-assist" and was in email correspondence with Gunther for a few days. I didn't take the job because he "had to" set sail on 14 Dec and his planned route was down the Ditch until at least Beaufort before popping out and moving on South. With Grand children - I don't sail over Christmas - full stop. (New Year- I couldn't give a rat's backside). Pity, as in the event, as I suspected, the start was delayed so I could have done the job anyway!!

No problems - another delivery turns up...So - granted I was a lot further South, but that same week I was between BVI and Cancun on a Leopard 42 in 52 kts of wind. We started in a Force 7 from an Easterly direction with deep reefed main and small jib. Quite busy and quite fast....I hand steer in those conditions particularly as auto-pilots are not at their best down wind. The wind died and we motor-sailed for a couple of days then, between Cayman and Cuba the wind went Northerly and rather strong. We too, were stopped in the water by a rather larger wave (but not driven backwards - too much).

So - what am I trying to say? My take is that the delivery crew could have done rather more on the electrical side: I am no electrician - although I can point the prongs of a multi-meter threateningly in the direction of the problem - but having ascertained that a starter motor was causing problems I would have tried to swap them over, or if I hadn't realised it, tried swapping over or doubling up the start batteries, which would then have made me realise that a starter motor was f@#@d. As for the genset - not really enough information given to comment on it.

Anyway - luvverly strong boats, Leopards!!! (thread drift....)
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:25   #566
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Hello, everybody

Looks to me that all the discussion revolves around five main points here:

1. Rudder built. Deserves a separate thread. I can not contribute to this, as I’m not an engineer. My only remark is – these things seem to fail a little too often. May be too much of cost cutting and weight cutting around???
2. Ability to make a repairs on high sea. The discussion here is very enlightening and informative. Can help to all of us to be better prepared in the future. Of course – it is purely theoretical, as we really know almost nothing regarding the availability of resources (skills, tools) on board. I remember well as I was preparing for my first short cruise on newly built boat. It is quite big, with great storage space, so I got loaded with different tools. Of course, when first failure came, I didn’t have one of the tools necessary to do the (simple) job at place and needed to go to the nearest port. S..t happens. Sometime even hits the fan.
3. Decision on going out at the given time at by given way. Interesting reading in general terms. I’m learning something about area completely unknown to me (except occasional reading). Next good reason to be on CF
4. Decision to abandon the boat. I’m somewhat disappointed by some comments there. Decision to abandon is only and solely decision of the crew involved (putting the decision making process aside). No one of us was present on the board, so no one is in position to comment on this decision, I believe. Of course – some time we can hear about abandoning the boat in circumstances just ridiculous, so we can need to check if it is not April the First by chance. But this was not such a situation for sure. The situation was dangerous and could evolve to immediately life threatening in quite short time. Who are we to be a jury here? Please, do not get me wrong. When reading posts like Palarran’s, who declares he would fight for his boat to the very last moment I can only appreciate and regard highly his attitude, hoping for myself to act in similar way if – and only IF – my wife and my crew would were willing to assist me. But reading something along the line that the crew SHOULD fight to death for a boat takes me back. There are not several tons of reinforced plastic, metal and other materials worth putting people’s lives at risk. Especially in order to keep the insurance premiums low, for the sake of the others. Such a comments are simply disgusting for me – sorry.
5. Overall design and built quality. My feeling is that it is the main issue here. To design and to build multihull is by no mean an easy task. Please, note – I’m no way against newly founded enterprises, yacht building yards included. I’m no way against new designers. I’m no way against innovative designs. I just believe that some level of experience should be included in such a project. Designing and building a cruising, but rather performance oriented cat is much more demanding than building a monohull for similar use. Cat is much more weight restrictive, so the structural (and other) engineering needs to be on another level. Use of modern materials and technologies is a complex knowledge. For all what we know at present the boat was designed by two people. One is well known multihull dealer and respected writer. His general knowledge regarding multis (and specifically cats) can not be disregarded, but, as I can understand, his qualifications regarding hydrodynamics, engineering, stability calculations and so on, and so on are not known at all. The second one has rather dated experience as a MONOHULL designer, has also some (outstandingly exaggerated for PR) boatbuilding experience from tens of years ago, when all materials and technologies were completely different. His professional career in more present time can be associated with lofting and also with charter business. I’m not aware of any other persons of boat design / boat building / boat engineering / hydrodynamics experience and/or reputation involved in this project. I dare to believe that any such involvement would be presented publicly. I do not want to say, that is impossible to design and build the good, reliable, well performing and innovative boat this way. Lack of reputation is just lack of reputation – it means only, that we do have not positive knowledge regarding some people’s abilities and qualifications. It is possible for somebody just to have a talent. But… If somebody depend on his (technical) talent, he should prove it before attempting the sale of the product of this talent. The yacht is not a artwork. Not solely at least. The first boat of the newly established yard, not backed by experience and reputation of the designer(s), engineers and builders should be not for sale. It should be built and tested first. Of course – it is the more difficult way. For the beginning less profitable also, as probably financial investor would be necessary. I do personally think (and this is for all worth only my personal opinion – I can be all wrong about this) that it is something entirely wrong about selling the entirely new, completely untested product to the customers. And not just average product, but the product of which people life is dependent, just like for car, airplane or a motorbike.

Best regards

Tomasz
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:30   #567
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I just came to see if this was posted about. My husband just found out about it - and this was our delivery captain who was on there!!! He's reading an article about Hank having experienced 5 loss of steerings in all his years of deliveries and two dismastings. We were one of the loss of steerings - LOL. This was his first ever abandon ship in LOTS of sailings and deliveries. Wow - crazy!
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:50   #568
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I just came to see if this was posted about. My husband just found out about it - and this was our delivery captain who was on there!!! He's reading an article about Hank having experienced 5 loss of steerings in all his years of deliveries and two dismastings. We were one of the loss of steerings - LOL. This was his first ever abandon ship in LOTS of sailings and deliveries. Wow - crazy!
Your boat Mfr has been around since the discovery of dirt.... er... seawater... Worlds of difference....
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:57   #569
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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48mm just happens to be 1.5" pipe OD. Odd size for solid bar. Good luck!

I'm using Sch 160 1.5" pipe on a 34' cat.
Rick's cat uses 48 mm solid SS stock. 48mm is 1.89". How is that equivalent to a 1.5" pipe? I must miss something here.
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:58   #570
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Your boat Mfr has been around since the discovery of dirt.... er... seawater... Words of difference....
Yep - We're reading the story of this whole thing and it's so interesting. But again, Hank has a TON of experience sailing and I remember when he got to NY on our boat and was very non-chalant about the loss of steering because he knew how to handle it. I'm sure if there was a way to get this boat to safety, he would have done it.

That said, I LOVE our boat and know it took him through a big storm with only the loss of steering (and one crew who will never sail again - LOL). 10 years later, many things have been updated and we really trust this boat to keep us safe. But I'm a landlubber and fair weather sailor. That's why we hired Hank to bring the boat from Fort Lauderdale to NY.
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