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Old 19-01-2014, 21:58   #526
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

[/QUOTE]



Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Notice he mentions a ten ton jack. I carry a Porta Power as well myself. Very useful.

Big Red 4-Ton Porta Power with Carry Case-T70401S at The Home Depot

Porta Power Ram | AutoZone.com

Are you guys just floating hardware stores? How many 40 foot cats are going to try and carry that much gear in addition to all of the provisioning for 4 guys on a 8-12 day sail to the islands,...or even transatlantic
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:08   #527
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post





Are you guys just floating hardware stores? How many 40 foot cats are going to try and carry that much gear in addition to all of the provisioning for 4 guys on a 8-12 day sail to the islands,...or even transatlantic [/QUOTE]

My cat's bigger than 40' but I've also got well over twice that many tools on board. Refrigeration tools have been a big one for me because it would be so difficult to find someone to repair it while cruising. But all in all, the tools would be a small amount of weight compared to all the comfort and fun stuff we carry. It's pretty easy to get overloaded.
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:10   #528
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Dear cf members I just bought hull one from a builder in NY. It's too cold for a shake down so I am hiring a captain to sail with me to the BVI leaving New York in January. My wife and a editor for a sail mag will join us. We have no idea how to monitor the batteries or the charge system. Could we discharge the batteries so bad that we can't start any of the motors? Are the batteries Separated on this thing? Will the warranty cover a major failure do to something like every possible steering failure occurs all at once? Would any of you like to join us?
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:17   #529
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I wasn't going to post these pics as I don't have any pics with the new bottom paint. These are taken at haul out after 3 years in the water.

Not much post to bend. I believe that's how you can get away with smallish diameter post - it's awful hard to bend a 1.5" post when you have <.25" to do it.

btw, the closeup is taken from the opposite side of the rudder.
Wrong assumption,...the bottom bearing and the bottom of the hull does not keep the shaft from bending if enough force is applied on the rudder at a distance from this point, particular forces applied at the tip of the rudder.

The bottom bearing can actually just 'follow' with the shaft as it bends between the top and bottom bearings.
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:23   #530
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Heavily carbon fiber reinforced skeg and rudder. Splayed carbon uni.

Name:   skeg for rudder.jpg
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Proper rudder for a cruising boat....a skeg rudder, not a spade one....
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:43   #531
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by rickbase1 View Post
Hello all,

I have been following this thread with interest as I was seriously considering buying hull #1. I ultimately decided to go with another builder and it will be ready late spring. Having the benefit of the experience of many of the insightful posts here is very much appreciated as it has given me a chance to review many of their issues and observations with my builder.

After reviewing everything from stern wash to rudder design, end stops, emergency steering, rudder shaft top access, and electrical system redundancy I am now more confident than ever I made the right decision!

Several of the possible jury-rig solutions are very insightful as well.

I hope that someone does salvage the boat and we can get a more complete picture of what happened so we can all benefit from this unfortunate event.

Thanks All !

Rick
So,... What vessel did you decide to go with?
...and what sort of rudder shaft sixes does it have?? (I ask this question when I read back in this subject thread about the Nautitech cat with 1.5" shafts also)
How many other such vessels?
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:47   #532
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I don't claim to be an expert. But I've never seen bare rudder shaft sticking out of the bearings. Every single spade rudder installation I've seen on a cat has had the rudder body up against a thrust washer, which is against the bottom of the bearing tube.
This thrust washer you speak of can only really prevent some axial movement of the shaft within its bearings. It is totally inadequate to prevent bending forces applied to the rudder blade.
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:54   #533
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I'd be happy to but it might be best to start a new thread if you want details, so here is a short form primer. We can always move it if there is interest,

A quick summary of my prerequisites:

- 42-46 ft multihull
- light and fast, but still suitable as a live aboard (think BMW M3)
- a true blue water boat, not a condomaran
- incorporate a modern design and building techniques
- being an instrumentation designer, I wanted an open minded builder that would allow me to design a 24V LiFePo4 generatorless air-con boat
- to find a builder that already had a proven design that was easily updated

Construction began 12 months ago and we expect to hit the water this May. We were hoping to have it ready for the Miami show but missed it.

Cheers,

Rick
That would be great. I'd like to know more about your 'generatorless air-con' system as well.

Make a link to your new thread here on this one so the many participants can follow?
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Old 20-01-2014, 02:49   #534
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
This thrust washer you speak of can only really prevent some axial movement of the shaft within its bearings. It is totally inadequate to prevent bending forces applied to the rudder blade.

What an amazing statement! Did anyone say the thrust washer was there to prevent bending loads? Given that the entire purpose of a steering system is to generate bending loads in the rudder stock, and then transfer then to the hulls...
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Old 20-01-2014, 03:56   #535
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Given the conditions , I do not see any useful suggestions as to how either of the issues could have been fixed at sea.

Dave
My only thought, us if she had longer rudder posts they could have loosened and dropped down the bent rudder to regain some steering ability and possibly made it home. Several cats weve owned had spades and the posts ran a good 3 plus inches above the arm.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 20-01-2014, 04:54   #536
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Rick.
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Old 20-01-2014, 05:45   #537
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbase1 View Post
Hello all,

I have been following this thread with interest as I was seriously considering buying hull #1. I ultimately decided to go with another builder and it will be ready late spring. Having the benefit of the experience of many of the insightful posts here is very much appreciated as it has given me a chance to review many of their issues and observations with my builder.

After reviewing everything from stern wash to rudder design, end stops, emergency steering, rudder shaft top access, and electrical system redundancy I am now more confident than ever I made the right decision!

Several of the possible jury-rig solutions are very insightful as well.

I hope that someone does salvage the boat and we can get a more complete picture of what happened so we can all benefit from this unfortunate event.

Thanks All !

Rick
rickbase1,

You are what we call the luckiest man on earth. Since you ordered and then canceled your Alpha 42 hull#1 and now see what could have been your first ride end in a very sad way.

What boat design did you end up ordering?
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Old 20-01-2014, 05:47   #538
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Re: Tube or Rod ?

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I meant to ask,...tube or solid rod?
It sure looked to be tube in the pic he posted. The "substantial" end stops looked to be easy to shear as well. But likely the rudders will be long gone prior to that.

Think path of least resistance. It's pretty shocking the overall the lack of safety that had migrated into catamaran design and building the last 20 or so years. As a perfect example, center of gravity seems to be of no concern what soever these days. Check out all the super double decker cats these days and the huge windows.

I guess they have been able to paper over the few disasters with plenty of advertising. That won't be the case with this small builder.
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Old 20-01-2014, 05:47   #539
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Wrong assumption,...the bottom bearing and the bottom of the hull does not keep the shaft from bending if enough force is applied on the rudder at a distance from this point, particular forces applied at the tip of the rudder.

The bottom bearing can actually just 'follow' with the shaft as it bends between the top and bottom bearings.
I didn't make myself clear. The reason a 1.5" shaft fits the requirement for normal usage is the small amount of space. I don't believe spade rudders are design for high speed reverse. When that happens, all bets are off.
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Old 20-01-2014, 06:23   #540
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
I keep hearing reference to violent motion, yet I see no evidence of it in injuries to the crew or crap thrown all over the cabin. None of the crew(that I have heard) have said anything about bruises or cuts etc. The only thing damaged are suspect rudders, but the builder likes to use the term rouge wave to explain that.
I also picked up on that - could be simply omitted from the story, for whatever reasons.


Quote:
Boaty makes a good point about being a Captain Vs a Delivery skipper. A delivery skipper needs to be a jack of all trades since it is the rare delivery that something, big or small doesnt go wrong. This crew didnt seem to worry about the electrical failures, yet they didnt have the sense to disconnect one of the starting batteries to save it for the SSB if it was needed later on. A great sailor can be a klutz with a wrench, but a delivery skipper needs to have knowledge (at least some) in all aspects of boats and systems. Just another 2 cents worth. _____Grant.
+1

Of course a delivery skipper is hampered by both what is onboard (including the owners!) and not onboard - only so much can bring in a kit bag and knowledge only goes so far without the kit needed (or time to learn systems backwards as an owner can)......but part of the deal with a delivery skipper is a willingness to accept the higher degree of risk all that brings in exchange for cash, perhaps something for an owner to bear in mind when coming along on his new "pride and joy"?
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