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Old 19-01-2014, 17:20   #511
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
You use 5200 to seal the shoe plate and the screws?? or anything better?

4000 FC, so I don't have to use dynamite if I ever have to remove it again. But it had epoxy wet sanded into it and then was epoxy faired over and barrier coated. It's actually in the epoxy sealer stage in the pic there. Here it is all gooped up. Too much 4000 and jack the shoe into place until goop shoots out everywhere. No voids there.
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Old 19-01-2014, 17:55   #512
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

If someone says that the captain has to know everything and has to fix everything on the boat, I 'd say he didn't sail enough to figure out what he doesn't know..

Every captain should have a basic understanding on everything on the boat and every aspect of sailing the boat and excel in some areas according to his/her past experiences. Above all, he/she should have a good decision making capability under stress and keep the admiral and the crew under control (this skill is hardest learn and develop..
A captain cannot be an expert in all of the very different areas/skills such as navigation, mechanical, electric/electronic, carpentary, rigging, trimming, weather reading, routing, anchoring, moneuvring, heavy weather sailing tactics, first aid etc.All of us are good in some of them, less good in some others and maybe the best for the rest..
Moreover, few boat can carry all the necessary equipment, tools and spare parts necessary to make these repairs.

Everbody is blaming the rudder and I agree, it's very lightly designed and built. But if the story that the crew tells is true (which I find very bizarre "being jerked suddenly backwards when they were sailing at 8 kts.".) , many boats would probably have similar problems.

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Old 19-01-2014, 18:03   #513
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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post

I'm not saying they won't bend/break. What I saying is those that believe spade rudders need 3" posts need to consider how hard it is to bend a 1.5" post in that small amount of space. Spade rudders aren't designed to drag at 90 degrees to the water, they are designed to alter the flow of water for which they are knifing thru.....

. A small amount of backwards force on a spade rudder with forward post can be devastating.
Well, 3 inch posts sure would have made the failure less likely. Sure, backwards force can be tough on a rudder, but from Charles doane's report the forces seemed underwhelming.

So I respectfully disagree on these rudder shafts being adequate for an offshore boat. Coastal, maybe.
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Old 19-01-2014, 18:26   #514
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Every one seemed hung on on why the boat failed rather than looking at the poor decisions made. First, they decided to head offshore directly to the Virgin Islands from NYC in the dead of winter with a brand new boat. Winter North Atlantic is as dangerous a place as there is. Cold fronts are coming through at least once a week.

They could have made the hop along the coast from NYC to the Virginia Capes as a shake down cruise. If they encountered the ensuing problems of engines not working properly, or charging system problem, even leaking windows, all of that could have been addressed in port. Working dr heir way South along the coast would be the prudent thing to do with an untested new boat.

Most cruisers bound for the Virgin Islands try to get South at least to Norfolk or better Beaufort, NC to eliminate going around Cape Hatteras. With that plan they could have left on the tail end of a front and maybe get across the stream and East enough to ride the next front South to find the Easterlies.
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Old 19-01-2014, 18:43   #515
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Double-Wide View Post
Every one seemed hung on on why the boat failed rather than looking at the poor decisions made. First, they decided to head offshore directly to the Virgin Islands from NYC in the dead of winter with a brand new boat. Winter North Atlantic is as dangerous a place as there is. Cold fronts are coming through at least once a week.

They could have made the hop along the coast from NYC to the Virginia Capes as a shake down cruise. If they encountered the ensuing problems of engines not working properly, or charging system problem, even leaking windows, all of that could have been addressed in port. Working dr heir way South along the coast would be the prudent thing to do with an untested new boat.

Most cruisers bound for the Virgin Islands try to get South at least to Norfolk or better Beaufort, NC to eliminate going around Cape Hatteras. With that plan they could have left on the tail end of a front and maybe get across the stream and East enough to ride the next front South to find the Easterlies.

Yes, most disasters at sea are from a chain of events, not one single happening. Boat was hull #1, , not tested enough, delivered late (blog says it was going to be in the Annapolis boat show) to owners who were obviously anxious to head south and not miss the season. Sad ending brought on by apparently less than robust construction and poor decisions. The blog claims it was being built to ABS standards but I saw no involvement from the classification society. It's hard to understand how the engines failed. How the generator failed. Problems with mainsail track. etc.
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Old 19-01-2014, 19:23   #516
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Rudders Stops are installed to stop the exact problem that caused the demise of the Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Rudders stops at 30 to 45 degrees would have allowed the rudders to still cut through the water on the violent wave that pushed her backwards.

Instead, with no rudder stops, the rudders went full barn door sideways creating huge forces against them and bending, breaking and disabling both of them.

An example, would be if you walk into a locked closed door. It’s not going anywhere and you going to get hurt (Dead Stop).

Now walk into that same door that is open 30 to 45 degrees with a door stop and nothing will happen to you and you will just get pushed to the side and keep going.
And what if the push was from 40 off the nose? Now the rudders are barn doors. I just don't believe rudder stops would have saved the day.
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Old 19-01-2014, 19:37   #517
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Interesting how everyone is focused on the rudder that bent. The other rudder sheered it's welded fins and only had set screws that held it to the arm.
I can guess that the stbd rudder had lost orientation do to the missing link pin and was slammed so hard it broke the welds. With it detached it would be free to follow and also without resistance get wrenched pretty hard. It probably was out of alignment or failed well Before the wave slammed them. So all the load was on the remaining rudder.
With that I think the manufacturer has some liability.
Any ideas on how the charging and batts were set up. What allowed so many failures?
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Old 19-01-2014, 19:47   #518
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Hello all,

I have been following this thread with interest as I was seriously considering buying hull #1. I ultimately decided to go with another builder and it will be ready late spring. Having the benefit of the experience of many of the insightful posts here is very much appreciated as it has given me a chance to review many of their issues and observations with my builder.

After reviewing everything from stern wash to rudder design, end stops, emergency steering, rudder shaft top access, and electrical system redundancy I am now more confident than ever I made the right decision!

Several of the possible jury-rig solutions are very insightful as well.

I hope that someone does salvage the boat and we can get a more complete picture of what happened so we can all benefit from this unfortunate event.

Thanks All !

Rick
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Old 19-01-2014, 19:50   #519
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Tube or Rod ?

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Originally Posted by chris in SG View Post
...My Nautitech 40 rudders are probably a similar size and spec. The rudder stocks are 1 1/2" SS tube and the quadrant is attached by through bolt. The emergency tiller fits inside the tube and keys onto the through-bolt.
I meant to ask,...tube or solid rod?
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Old 19-01-2014, 20:20   #520
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by rickbase1 View Post
Hello all,

I have been following this thread with interest as I was seriously considering buying hull #1. I ultimately decided to go with another builder and it will be ready late spring. Having the benefit of the experience of many of the insightful posts here is very much appreciated as it has given me a chance to review many of their issues and observations with my builder.

After reviewing everything from stern wash to rudder design, end stops, emergency steering, rudder shaft top access, and electrical system redundancy I am now more confident than ever I made the right decision!

Several of the possible jury-rig solutions are very insightful as well.

I hope that someone does salvage the boat and we can get a more complete picture of what happened so we can all benefit from this unfortunate event.

Thanks All !

Rick
Welcome Rick.
Hope you can share with us your thought processes on your boat choice.
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Old 19-01-2014, 20:24   #521
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Re: Tube or Rod ?

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
I meant to ask,...tube or solid rod?
Has to be tube if "the emergency tiller fits inside the tube".
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Old 19-01-2014, 20:31   #522
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Re: Tube or Rod ?

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
I meant to ask,...tube or solid rod?
Tube..

Wall thickness approx 5mm, I would guess. I can measure that if anyone is interested. It seems unlikely that it's a tube at the top end and solid below (and undesirable to have a combination of both) so I'm assuming it's tube all the way..
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Old 19-01-2014, 20:49   #523
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I'd be happy to but it might be best to start a new thread if you want details, so here is a short form primer. We can always move it if there is interest,

A quick summary of my prerequisites:

- 42-46 ft multihull
- light and fast, but still suitable as a live aboard (think BMW M3)
- a true blue water boat, not a condomaran
- incorporate a modern design and building techniques
- being an instrumentation designer, I wanted an open minded builder that would allow me to design a 24V LiFePo4 generatorless air-con boat
- to find a builder that already had a proven design that was easily updated

Construction began 12 months ago and we expect to hit the water this May. We were hoping to have it ready for the Miami show but missed it.

Cheers,

Rick
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Old 19-01-2014, 21:23   #524
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I keep hearing reference to violent motion, yet I see no evidence of it in injuries to the crew or crap thrown all over the cabin. None of the crew(that I have heard) have said anything about bruises or cuts etc. The only thing damaged are suspect rudders, but the builder likes to use the term rouge wave to explain that. Boaty makes a good point about being a Captain Vs a Delivery skipper. A delivery skipper needs to be a jack of all trades since it is the rare delivery that something, big or small doesnt go wrong. This crew didnt seem to worry about the electrical failures, yet they didnt have the sense to disconnect one of the starting batteries to save it for the SSB if it was needed later on. A great sailor can be a klutz with a wrench, but a delivery skipper needs to have knowledge (at least some) in all aspects of boats and systems. Just another 2 cents worth. _____Grant.
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Old 19-01-2014, 21:43   #525
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What Poweboat ?

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OK Try this. Two of you are going to be taken out in a powerboat to the floating hulk. What would you take and how would you get it home ??
Better question first,...what 'powerboat' are you going to take out that far offshore in those winter conditions. Do you really think powerboats are that seaworthy??
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