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Old 19-01-2014, 15:09   #496
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Believe it me, this rudders bend if they are strong enough , if not, probably crushed or with the bottom destroyed in a collision or grounding, and figurate with the boat doing backwards ...
I'm not saying they won't bend/break. What I saying is those that believe spade rudders need 3" posts need to consider how hard it is to bend a 1.5" post in that small amount of space. Spade rudders aren't designed to drag at 90 degrees to the water, they are designed to alter the flow of water for which they are knifing thru.

We have to assume collision wasn't a factor in the Alpha 42, it was a case of the rudder becoming 90 degrees to the force of current of unknown speed/power. I also don't buy the suggestion that rudder stops would have prevented the damage, that's narrowly thinking the force was exactly on the nose. The force could have very well been 60 degrees off the nose in which rudder stops would not have helped at all. A small amount of backwards force on a spade rudder with forward post can be devastating.
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:13   #497
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
That would not be true.
Lots of boat Captains just know how to get the boat from A to B.

A Captain in most cases is not a boat mechanic
My assumption was if the delivery captain has been doing captaining for so long and just by osmosis from others. he would know the diesel engine more than my wife.

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Old 19-01-2014, 15:17   #498
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Those of you suggesting getting in the water and cutting the shaft, or smashing off the rudder foam while at sea, are dreaming, even with Dive gear. The vessel movement is too much, impossible to hold yourself there, let alone use the tools. You get smashed by the boat... in my experience.
I think they tried what they could. I would have tried to remove the rudders, and could likely have fixed some sort of charging system... Does not mean that it would have worked, just I'd have tried.
Having lived and sailed in the roaring 40's for 40 mumble years, I can absolutely believe a wave could have stopped, then reversed an 18000lb boat. No problem. BUT it is not "instant" as some have suggested, although it is fast. Many rudders on many boats will break in these circumstances. The rudder, IMO should have been attached to the shaft with a keyway, not allen screws, and not a through bolt. Many boats have rudder stops that are inadequate. Just my opinion
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:27   #499
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
Those of you suggesting getting in the water and cutting the shaft, or smashing off the rudder foam while at sea, are dreaming, even with Dive gear. The vessel movement is too much, impossible to hold yourself there, let alone use the tools. You get smashed by the boat... in my experience.
I think they tried what they could. I would have tried to remove the rudders, and could likely have fixed some sort of charging system... Does not mean that it would have worked, just I'd have tried.
Having lived and sailed in the roaring 40's for 40 mumble years, I can absolutely believe a wave could have stopped, then reversed an 18000lb boat. No problem. BUT it is not "instant" as some have suggested, although it is fast. Many rudders on many boats will break in these circumstances. The rudder, IMO should have been attached to the shaft with a keyway, not allen screws, and not a through bolt. Many boats have rudder stops that are inadequate. Just my opinion


I'll show you mine if you show me yours...



Double keyway and monster set screw with detente. Solid shaft.
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:30   #500
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Heavily carbon fiber reinforced skeg and rudder. Splayed carbon uni.
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:31   #501
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

At least 1/2" of carbon fiber on the rudder.
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:34   #502
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

SS skeg shoe. 3/8" plate. All the bolts go through and tap into the other side of the shoe.
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:35   #503
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Big difference, eh?
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:41   #504
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Lol!! Big diference yes.....
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:43   #505
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

You use 5200 to seal the shoe plate and the screws?? or anything better?
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Old 19-01-2014, 15:48   #506
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I also don't buy the suggestion that rudder stops would have prevented the damage, that's narrowly thinking the force was exactly on the nose. The force could have very well been 60 degrees off the nose in which rudder stops would not have helped at all. A small amount of backwards force on a spade rudder with forward post can be devastating.
Rudders Stops are installed to stop the exact problem that caused the demise of the Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Rudders stops at 30 to 45 degrees would have allowed the rudders to still cut through the water on the violent wave that pushed her backwards.

Instead, with no rudder stops, the rudders went full barn door sideways creating huge forces against them and bending, breaking and disabling both of them.

An example, would be if you walk into a locked closed door. Itís not going anywhere and you going to get hurt (Dead Stop).

Now walk into that same door that is open 30 to 45 degrees with a door stop and nothing will happen to you and you will just get pushed to the side and keep going.
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Old 19-01-2014, 16:18   #507
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Rudders Stops are installed to stop the exact problem that caused the demise of the Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Rudders stops at 30 to 45 degrees would have allowed the rudders to still cut through the water on the violent wave that pushed her backwards.

Instead, with no rudder stops, the rudders went full barn door sideways creating huge forces against them and bending, breaking and disabling both of them.

An example, would be if you walk into a locked closed door. Itís not going anywhere and you going to get hurt (Dead Stop).

Now walk into that same door that is open 30 to 45 degrees with a door stop and nothing will happen to you and you will just get pushed to the side and keep going.
There is no evidence that rudder stops would haver rented the damage. Based in the description from Charles , one rudder failed internally with the internal armature detacting. Rudder stips would not have help.

The other was bent considerably but the rudder arm did not slip on the rudder stock , hence it more then likely only went to the limits of the allowed tiller movement and then the rudder bent

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Old 19-01-2014, 16:19   #508
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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There is no evidence that rudder stops would haver rented the damage. Based in the description from Charles , one rudder failed internally with the internal armature detacting. Rudder stips would not have help.

The other was bent considerably but the rudder arm did not slip on the rudder stock , hence it more then likely only went to the limits of the allowed tiller movement and then the rudder bent

Dave
Given the conditions , I do not see any useful suggestions as to how either of the issues could have been fixed at sea.

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Old 19-01-2014, 16:30   #509
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I think that is Sail Magazine executive editor Charled Doane being rescued at about 9:27 in that vid. He's the one with the cooler and last off the boat.
Charlie was on the boat, but he was first off followed by owner Diane, then Hank Schmitt, then owner Gunther with the cooler.

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
from what i can deduce the crew was the new owner and his people, not the builder and their crew. you would think an expensive boat with all the latest gear would at least - regardless of it being a monohull or multihull - have state of the art weather electronics and the crew the ability to use it.
They had good weather information aboard and a professional weather router ashore on the other end of a sat phone link. The weather was a bit worse than predicted but really not terrible (other than a surprise wave that knocked them back on their rudders). Rudders jammed so they could only go in circles was the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Boatman, before you start expounding upon your vastly superior experience you might wish to consider the resume of the skipper of this boat. Hank Schmitt (erroneously referred to as Hank Schmidt in media reports) has purportedly averaged 100 days and 10,000 miles a year at sea over the last 20 years. He is the organizer (as well as a participant) in the annual NARC rally from Newport to St. Martin and is probably North America's best known delivery skipper.
Hank is a great skipper. I've had the pleasure to sail with him and for a while I worked with him.

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Exactly, spade rudders should not really be utilized on a cruising vessel. They are MUCH more acceptable to damage. Apparently these were bent (the shafts) when the vessel was thrown back by a huge wave.
I think you mean susceptible. Not relevant to this scenario. Back up any boat fast and let go of the wheel. See what happens.
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Old 19-01-2014, 16:58   #510
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I don't claim to be an expert. But I've never seen bare rudder shaft sticking out of the bearings. Every single spade rudder installation I've seen on a cat has had the rudder body up against a thrust washer, which is against the bottom of the bearing tube.

I'm very likely going to a hardstand today, so I'll pay more attention.
I think he probably means 'unsupported' rather than exposed or a gap. The section of stock encased in the rudder is a lever, the section supported by the upper and lower bearings is a second opposing lever, so the area between these levers, however small, is the weakest point and is where the failure will occur. if it needs more 'meat' in order to bend, given the forces involved, it will find what it needs to bend, either from within itself (elongation/compression) or from within the rudder (just foam holding it in longitudinally) or from the tiller / quadrant attachment area, or a combination of all 3. However it would also depend on the type of bearings involved. If they were the self aligning JP3 type, the lower bearing would have quite a lot of flex in it so the point of failure would move up and as 44C says is likely to intrude into the lower bearing area itself (and its just 'plastic' after all). End of the day though, a good hammer would clear it as it wouldn't have very far to go to get past the bad section of shaft (and its just plastic after all). The rudder buoyancy angle is a non starter, I've dropped undamaged rudders in the water before (those very same FP types) and they have only very slight positive buoyancy, a dive weight belt slung over the top with a couple of 2 pound weights on either side was all it took to sink em, ie nothing a hammer and a bar from the inside would have any trouble dealing with. Something else perhaps worth considering is the movement of the boat in the conditions and therefore the continuing interaction between the two levels (even at new / different angles) might actually assist in forcing the rudders out together with some downward persuasion (the hammer/bar etc).
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