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Old 19-01-2014, 12:39   #466
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Does anyone know what that small thing is wired up near the rudder posts?
That is an LED light out to the stern steps
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:40   #467
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Well... he's got one thing right in thats for sure...
We ARE a bunch of Armchair Quarterbackers..
Absolutely!! Most everyone is.

In my opinion, his follow-up only adds more speculation to the game and doesn't answer anything. Like:

"None of us are really diesel mechanics"
"Taking brand new lightly equipped boats into shitty weather is a big part of that job, at least if you really want to make a living at it."
" It never occurred to us to cut a hole in the deck over the rudder stock or to destroy the bearing tube–this, I submit, would have been a bad idea given the high likelihood of encountering another gale." A bad idea vs abandioning ship? What was the downside?
"We weren’t that concerned about the loss of power in any event and spent little or no time trying to solve that problem."

And I really like one of the posted responses: "A title of captain does not give anybody an assurance of being capable when things go wrong offshore." It's an good observation and one I've thought about often. It is relatively easy to sail a boat. It's a lot harder to do all (or most of) the repairs on it yourself. As a generalization I've always said you can learn to sail in a months time and be 80% competent. If you continue sailing and repairing/maintaining the boat in one year you may be 95% competent. Most of us never know if we have the last 5% because that is what you do when your rig falls, your rudders snap, or some other type of emergency happens that has never been experienced. Threads such as this do help to give us an idea of what can be done if one of those critical emergencies happens.

Back to the lazyboy.
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:47   #468
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

OK Try this. Two of you are going to be taken out in a powerboat to the floating hulk. What would you take and how would you get it home ??
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:50   #469
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I don't claim to be an expert. But I've never seen bare rudder shaft sticking out of the bearings. Every single spade rudder installation I've seen on a cat has had the rudder body up against a thrust washer, which is against the bottom of the bearing tube.

I'm very likely going to a hardstand today, so I'll pay more attention.
The issue isn't "Is there bare rudder shaft between the bearings and rudder" but if the rudder shaft bends, does it bend inside the bearings or just below it. I think what most of us have been saying is that the shaft will not bend in the bearing or above it, but below it. Thus, if you had to push the rudder out it could be done. The suggestion that foam on the rudder would provide too much buoyancy to do this IMO is not correct.

Though I've never seen it, here is a picture of mine. Ok, the beer right below it is mine so maybe I have seen it in person
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:52   #470
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pirate re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Absolutely!! Most everyone is.

In my opinion, his follow-up only adds more speculation to the game and doesn't answer anything. Like:

"None of us are really diesel mechanics"
"Taking brand new lightly equipped boats into shitty weather is a big part of that job, at least if you really want to make a living at it."
" It never occurred to us to cut a hole in the deck over the rudder stock or to destroy the bearing tube–this, I submit, would have been a bad idea given the high likelihood of encountering another gale." A bad idea vs abandioning ship? What was the downside?
"We weren’t that concerned about the loss of power in any event and spent little or no time trying to solve that problem."

And I really like one of the posted responses: "A title of captain does not give anybody an assurance of being capable when things go wrong offshore." It's an good observation and one I've thought about often. It is relatively easy to sail a boat. It's a lot harder to do all (or most of) the repairs on it yourself. As a generalization I've always said you can learn to sail in a months time and be 80% competent. If you continue sailing and repairing/maintaining the boat in one year you may be 95% competent. Most of us never know if we have the last 5% because that is what you do when your rig falls, your rudders snap, or some other type of emergency happens that has never been experienced. Threads such as this do help to give us an idea of what can be done if one of those critical emergencies happens.

Back to the lazyboy.
+A!... and 'boastful posts' can be constructive as well.. might prompt someone to come up with something useful... think a few rudder insights came from this...
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:53   #471
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
There is no gap on ours. There is a washer between the rudder post bearing and the rudder. Any gap that exists is measured in thousandths of an inch.

I do, however, believe that a bend can still happen in this area, because I think the stock here can elongate during bending forces, as well as the stock just inside the rudder skin top can be bent. Also, the rudder body foam can be forced down on the internal webbing and expose a bit of shaft.

Mark
Exactly - there is no gap. I've never seen a cat that has bare rudder shaft dangling out of it's hull. maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention. But every one I've seen is like yours. And surely you can admit, if the stock can stretch and bend inside the rudder, it's also possible it can bend inside the bearing?

MAYBE the shaft could stretch, but how much force would it take to elongate 1 1/2 inch stainless bar? I'd suggest even more than required to bend it.

I do know of another occasion that a rudder shaft has been bent, (in a grounding) was no longer of circular section in the area of the bend, and steering jammed solid as a result.

There was (IIRC) a Perry which this happened to, and the lower bearing had to be taken out of the boat and replaced. The shaft simply could not be driven out of the bearing.
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:54   #472
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Notice he mentions a ten ton jack. I carry a Porta Power as well myself. Very useful.



Big Red 4-Ton Porta Power with Carry Case-T70401S at The Home Depot



http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...r-Ram/_/N-26re





Wonder if you could get a loop of Amsteel around the bent rudder and run it to a winch to bend the shaft back to straight enough to no longer be jammed against the hull?


If you can insert a strong enough crossbrace above the rudder post you could almost certainly get it out with a Porta Power.
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Old 19-01-2014, 12:59   #473
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Exactly - there is no gap. I've never seen a cat that has bare rudder shaft dangling out of it's hull. maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention. But every one I've seen is like yours. And surely you can admit, if the stock can stretch and bend inside the rudder, it's also possible it can bend inside the bearing?

MAYBE the shaft could stretch, but how much force would it take to elongate 1 1/2 inch stainless bar? I'd suggest even more than required to bend it.

I do know of another occasion that a rudder shaft has been bent, (in a grounding) was no longer of circular section in the area of the bend, and steering jammed solid as a result.

There was (IIRC) a Perry which this happened to, and the lower bearing had to be taken out of the boat and replaced. The shaft simply could not be driven out of the bearing.


Cant bend a shaft at all without elongation on one side and compression on the other. It's the same thing.
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:00   #474
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
+A!... and 'boastful posts' can be constructive as well.. might prompt someone to come up with something useful... think a few rudder insights came from this...


I liked "baying dogs of the internet" myself!
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:01   #475
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Hope I get this right as it has been reported with different versions.
Port side had a through pin and set screws but bent. The stbd side had only set screws but the 1/4 x 2 " welded wings failed and the rudder wing was rotating on the shaft. So 3 failures in the build strength. Bent shaft from a load that was most likely square against the rudder surface. Failed welded foils on the rudder shaft and missing or not installed link pin.
I don't understand the complete failure of the charging system.
I can guess that the controller failed and was not telling the alternators to charge. I agree at my armchair length the working starter could have been moved and perhaps would work. No talk of drogues or para anchor?
At some point the people who were their felt like they had balanced skill and risk with the situation and chose to abandon.
This I a bit like reading interpreted data. People keep changing what they think they read. I don't think any of these should happen. They can happen but a bigger shaft well built and installed rudder should not fail like these did .
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:06   #476
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
Update from Charles Doane.
BE GOOD TOO: Answering Critics | Sailfeed

I think he's been reading this thread.
Quote:
The one interesting suggestion that has been made is that we might have removed the starboard engine’s starter when the engine was running and put it on the port engine to start it, too. Gunther actually suggested this, and Hank and I thought it sounded crazy. None of us are really diesel mechanics.
It is not a criticism, but just an observation. With the caliber of Hand and Charles, I thought these two men would be the expert of all systems on board a sailboat. Granted, on a brand new boat the owner may not acquired all the tools.

I thank Hank and Charles for their stories. I am sure I can learn from their misfortunes. I think Gunther and his wife is the coolest couple under this situation. Now I can see why they are so successful in life. I wish they will pick up what they left of and continue their sailing journey.
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:08   #477
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Cant bend a shaft at all without elongation on one side and compression on the other. It's the same thing.
Of course. Which results in deformation, and a shaft that is no longer circular in section, but oval. And if any of the bending happens inside a bearing, it jams.
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:08   #478
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
There is no gap on ours. There is a washer between the rudder post bearing and the rudder. Any gap that exists is measured in thousandths of an inch.



I do, however, believe that a bend can still happen in this area, because I think the stock here can elongate during bending forces, as well as the stock just inside the rudder skin top can be bent. Also, the rudder body foam can be forced down on the internal webbing and expose a bit of shaft.



Mark

You are correct, the bend will occur below the rudder skin and just outside the rudder skin to just inside the bottom bearing. The center of the bend will favor the rudder side. This is because the top of the rudder will typically give way before the bearing will, especially if it's hard like vesconite incased in the rudder tube which is more reinforced than the top of the rudder.
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:27   #479
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
"None of us are really diesel mechanics"
"Taking brand new lightly equipped boats into shitty weather is a big part of that job, at least if you really want to make a living at it." Back to the lazyboy.
That bothers me too. Hank is a professional delivery captain and the founder and president of OPO. Money should not be a factor in here.
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:30   #480
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

minaret,

I think you have a lot of really cool and heavy tools on your boat, but most cruiser do not have a Nauticat 52 like you.

A Mono hull can carry all those heavy things and more.

On a cat you carry what you need and it better be light weight or the boat does not sail well and gets slower as more weight is added.

I have a work shop on my boat with all my tools including full English and metric socket sets and a few hammers a small vise and a few battery operated power tools along with meters to check and test electrical equipment. I can fix anything on my cat.

Most cruisers are not prepared or capable of carrying out a technical, mechanical or electrical repair on any one of their marine systems.

Being a Captain of a boat does not mean you know how to fix it or trouble shoot a problem.
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