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Old 18-01-2014, 12:01   #391
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
"Be Good Too" rudders are foam core and float. You cannot just push the rudder post down and out the bottom of the boat as its floatation would keep it in place.

You would have to dive with a hammer and bust off the fiber glass shell and then all the foam. Doing all that while the hull is going up and down trying to knock you out. This would not be easy in anything but calm water.

The rudder post was up under the stern step, so you would have to drill or hammer a hole through the step and use a rod to push the rudder post down.

Doing all this would have taken hours and they had another weather front coming at them.
Rudders are usually designed to be neutrally buoyant. However, even if it was floating, you just push it down. It'll have what, maybe 20 pounds of flotation at most? Remember that it is mostly solid steel and fiberglass with a bit of foam in it.
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Old 18-01-2014, 12:02   #392
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by bethflkys View Post
Not as part of a thru-hull/seacock installation, they don't:

ABYC Standards, July 2013-14 edition

ABYC H-27 Seacocks, Thru-hull Fittings, and Drain Plugs

27.4.4.2 [Definition] In Line Ball Valve - A Seacock designed to be supported entirely by the through-hull fitting.

27.6 Installation

27.6.1 A seacock shall be securely mounted so that the assembly will withstand a 500 pound (227 kg) static force applied for 30 seconds to the inboard end of the assembly, without the assembly failing to stop the ingress of water. See Figure 1.

27.6.1.1 The installation shall prevent any movement of the assembly.

27.6.1.2 Thru-hull fittings and seacocks shall be connected directly.

As for threads…

27.6.1.3 Threads used in seacock installations shall be compatible (eg. NPT to NPT, NPS to NPS).

These particular regs are not new; there have been no changes at all to this section since 2008.


As long as if supports 500 lbs, it's fine. I bet a 1-1/2" marlon valve attached to a bronze mushroom would clear the test.
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Old 18-01-2014, 12:02   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethflkys View Post

Not as part of a thru-hull/seacock installation, they don't:

ABYC Standards, July 2013-14 edition

ABYC H-27 Seacocks, Thru-hull Fittings, and Drain Plugs

27.4.4.2 [Definition] In Line Ball Valve - A Seacock designed to be supported entirely by the through-hull fitting.

27.6 Installation

27.6.1 A seacock shall be securely mounted so that the assembly will withstand a 500 pound (227 kg) static force applied for 30 seconds to the inboard end of the assembly, without the assembly failing to stop the ingress of water. See Figure 1.

27.6.1.1 The installation shall prevent any movement of the assembly.

27.6.1.2 Thru-hull fittings and seacocks shall be connected directly.

As for threads…

27.6.1.3 Threads used in seacock installations shall be compatible (eg. NPT to NPT, NPS to NPS).

These particular regs are not new; there have been no changes at all to this section since 2008.

You understand that does not preclude self standing thru hulls and valves , merely that they withstand 500 lbs. Maine sail has some interesting videos on this

I have quite freely acknowledged the superior specification of ABYC recommendations ( cause that's all they are ) on seacocks.

Strange on threads normally you would not put parallel threads together as they are hard to seal. Normally parallel threads would be o-ring sealed like the SAE connectors.

Because of this this has tended in Europe to result in parallel threaded thru hulls ( which must be parallel ) engaging with taper threads valves. This will cause sealing but sometimes inadequate thread engagement. Custom adaptor like the Groco one would be better but I never seen them in BSP fittings.

It's one of the few areas the relevant ISO spec needs strengthening

Dave
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Old 18-01-2014, 12:08   #394
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
We carried a baby sledge hammer on our two year Atlantic circle cruise. We also carried a handful of expensive hacksaw blades in case our rig fell down.

If one looks at the history of tools the hammer is the original tool. All other tools have evolved from the hammer. I consider the "hammer" an indispensable part of a cruising toolkit.

The idea of getting into 50 deg F water to visually inspect the rudders with a heavy sea running comes from Hollywood at best. Perhaps with a wet suit, fins, and small weight belt and a strong young crew one could pull it off but the risk is high.

I have done a number of in situ propeller jobs including one remove and replace through the ice for a 300 lb prop. Accomplishing work on the rudders underwater in this stormy Atlantic scenario is impossible, period.
Totally agree that working on the rudders in the water would have been difficult and very dangerous (stern coming down on your head due to wave action).

That said, however, the 69 year old owner did get into the water with a snorkel and bathing suit and did a visual inspection. This is how they know that the stbd rudder was spinning on its shaft and the port rudder was bent severely inboard.
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Old 18-01-2014, 12:10   #395
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You understand that does not preclude self standing thru hulls and valves , merely that they withstand 500 lbs. Maine sail has some interesting videos on this



Dave
I was just helping clarify that ABYC is not ok with "unsupported ball valves" in seacock applications. You seemed a bit …argumentative. A ball valve directly connected to a properly installed thru hull is hardly "unsupported".

Regards
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Old 18-01-2014, 12:24   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethflkys View Post

I was just helping clarify that ABYC is not ok with "unsupported ball valves" in seacock applications. You seemed a bit …argumentative. A ball valve directly connected to a properly installed thru hull is hardly "unsupported".

Regards
I was trying to address various " perceptions " that people have about ABYC , as in the requirement for tinned wire , which despite many thinking so is not in ABYC nor specified in UL marine wire specification , equally ABYC allows unsupported thru hulls, as long as the materials are strong enough. Larger diameter thru hulls will pass on simple fittings and ball valves

One could go on for example on the use of wire nuts etc.

The issue here is people mistaking best practice ( for example tinned wire ) as somehow a validation of ABYC standards. When in fact no such validation is evident

If that's argumentative , I'm guilty as charged

The net effect is that neither CE ( RCD ) nor ABYC can prevent poor practices

Dave
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Old 18-01-2014, 12:50   #397
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Totally agree that working on the rudders in the water would have been difficult and very dangerous (stern coming down on your head due to wave action).

That said, however, the 69 year old owner did get into the water with a snorkel and bathing suit and did a visual inspection. This is how they know that the stbd rudder was spinning on its shaft and the port rudder was bent severely inboard.
You are right, I got the context of the picture of owner going in the water incorrect. However, he went in when it was quite calm. And, no way does it look like he is going into 50 degree F water.

Quoting Doane, "Come 0700 hrs conditions had become quite calm, with the wind from the south now at less than 10 knots, and at last we were able to embark on a deliberate examination of our problem."
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Old 18-01-2014, 13:04   #398
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Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

Wire nuts? Definitely not ok per ABYC, but I am not going to type out any more quotes from the standards. The book is too heavy!

But keep going. I have played this "last word" game with my husband many times. I'm sure you will "win", if you can call it that!
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Old 18-01-2014, 13:24   #399
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
I agree with Palarran and you on the MacGyver, get it done no matter what, energy and attitude.

The problem is that the three of us were not on Alfa 42 "Be Good Too".
We are at our keyboards thinking what we could have done in hindsight.

Hindsight is a great place to make the right decisions.

I carry a rubber mallet and a hammer on board. Your one of the few people that I know of that is carrying a baby sledge hammer on your boat. "Be Good Too" most likely did not have a baby sledge hammer on board.


Lol! I carry 2lb., 3 lb., 4 lb., and 6 lb. baby sledges. Most people I know have only ever seen a 2 lb. and aren't even aware there are options. Many times I've done demo side by side with someone using a 2 lb. while I was using a 3 or 4 lb. They always say things like "damn you're strong!" and I rarely disillusion them! They often look identical, just a different color handle and "3 lb" embossed in the head instead of "2 lb".
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Old 18-01-2014, 13:29   #400
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by bethflkys View Post
Wire nuts? Definitely not ok per ABYC, but I am not going to type out any more quotes from the standards. The book is too heavy!

But keep going. I have played this "last word" game with my husband many times. I'm sure you will "win", if you can call it that!
Sorry bad english on my part, what I meant was that the existence of ABYC or CE standards have not prevented poor practices, for example wire nuts , which while as you say are recommended not to be used by ABYC , do appear in certain boats.

ps as to the "win" I offer this a token of (mis) understanding

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Old 18-01-2014, 13:33   #401
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I posted the exact same thing but was corrected. I was shown that there is a retractable bimini section over the helm complete with windshield. If you go back to the A42 build blog you will find it. You can also see the support pieces retracted in that helm pic a few pages back. Looks functional.
That bimini does not have a real windshield. Look at the pictures here

This is definitely not comparable to what Antares has. It is open form all sides and have just a little protection from the top but no real protection from the front or the sides.

I like to look of Alpha 42 much more than Antares. Having said this though I have to say that the helmsman protection on the Antares is not comparable. You can also enclose entire Antares cockpit so it would much more comfortable. This is unless the weather goes so bad that the enclosure could be blown apart but I don't think they were in this kind of conditions.
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Old 18-01-2014, 13:36   #402
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

We got to get the vernacular straight here. The big sledge is called a big beater and the little one is called a baby beater as in "hand me the baby beater".
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Old 18-01-2014, 14:00   #403
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
1.5 inch solid rod for unsupported rudders sounds very small. My 13000 lb 33 footer has 1.5 inch solid bronze, but is full keel with attached rudder- supported top and bottom bearings and hence has lasted 47 years without a blip.
Yes, stainless is stiffer, but for a boat that size that can generate big loads?. They don't heel under load, which unloads rudders and rig in monos- so they need strong rudder stocks IMHO. Probably at least 3 inch tubing.
This is just wrong. Cats don't load their rudders anywhere near as much as mono's do.

Because we don't heel, we don't get the massive weather helm and sometimes uncontrollable rounding up tendencies. Because of this, rudders are usually much smaller.

I honestly doubt if many steering systems have been designed with consideration given to the loads possible when the boat is driven backwards at high speed, and the steering at a high angle.

I think that if one were to motor full astern and then suddenly let the steering go to full lock, there are a lot of boats that would suffer damage.
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Old 18-01-2014, 14:03   #404
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I think that if one were to motor full astern and then suddenly let the steering go to full lock, there are a lot of boats that would suffer damage.
Indeed, and there have been many anecdotal reports of ruder damage due to boats been thrown back on a wave. I suspect many rudder systems, on monos and cats would suffer damage.

All points to the serious need to carry a backup emergency rudder, not tiller.

dave
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Old 18-01-2014, 14:04   #405
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I completely disagree with the bending of the shaft and it bending inside the bearing. But it doesn't matter. The point is wouldn't you have at least tried ????

Where do you think it would bend then? Inside the rudder? You seem to think there is some length of unsupported shaft between the rudder and the bearings. There isn't.

The shaft won't bend inside the rudder - there's no bending force there. It MUST bend inside the bearing or tube. That's why steering will jam when the shaft bends.
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