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Old 17-01-2014, 21:43   #361
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The 700k question... If you had a hull on order would you throw the dice and move forward?
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Old 17-01-2014, 22:22   #362
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
One matter that intrigues me in reading the report by the editor was that they locked the wheel hard over to prevent rounding up. Is this normally done when sailing a cat in those conditions?

They were fore-reaching with main only. This is a storm tactic where you lock the wheel over to counteract the main. It is meant to jog very slowly upwind. This is by design, and all boats would handle it in a similar manner. How far the rudder is locked would depend on how much sail, but they only had two reefs, so quite a lot of rounding up force.
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Old 17-01-2014, 22:30   #363
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

There is still quite a lot of misunderstanding amongst the posts here. This article is fantastic and very complete.

The boat actually held up to conditions and the wave hit very well with the exception of the rudders (obviously), though no rudder likes backing up and the mysterious leak. However, the leak was mild (had to pump for several minutes each hour). I guess also the recurring power problem, though they fixed it once.

It really doesn't sound to me that they tried that hard to drop the rudder (no, you can't dive and cut it, but you should be able to drop it from inside the boat) or to fix the motors. They had a bad starter on one engine. Swapping starters would have taken about half an hour. Heck, you could start one engine, take its starter off and then start the other engine with it.

No jury rigged rudder or drogue was attempted either. They didn't want to use the main because the battens had torn loose from the bat cars, but they didn't try to repair this either.

They had lain ahull in heavy weather with great comfort, so I don't know if I buy that they were afraid of the deteriorating conditions.

The odd thing, though, is that they had all fought hard to bring boats back in the past but seemed to give up pretty easily on this one.
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Old 17-01-2014, 22:52   #364
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Perhaps they pegged it as a bad 'un.

Coops.
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Old 17-01-2014, 23:46   #365
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Since this thread seems to be going at 150 posts per day, I want to refer to something said, maybe 200 posts ago. There were several suggestions of going over the side and sawing off the rudder posts. I wonder if anyone suggesting that has ever tried to work under water on a boat in the open ocean, let alone in a calm anchorage? To think you can hold onto a moving boat and put pressure(hacksaw blade?) , and cut SS is probably dreaming. When I was about 25 years younger than anyone on that Cat, I managed to caulk about 60 foot of seam for an old wooden boat getting ready for Antigua Race week. I tried with scuba tanks and could not work with the clumsiness of it, so did it free diving. I snorkeled almost everyday so I was in great shape, but this was so exhausting that I could not even crew the next day. This was in a flat calm anchorage, so in the rolling sea, Good F@#$%^ Luck. Maybe Loyd Bridges, but not the average sailor. Just another opinion. _____Grant.
Glad you bought that up. I also had a couple of experiences trying to work on a underwater portion of a boat in relatively calm water, and when I was much younger. ....not as easy as one would think.

Then try hanging on to that stern of the cat in those conditions,...or try to keep from getting hit in the head by that rocking horse.

Try it sometimes on your own vessel in relatively calm waters, then report back to us.
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Old 18-01-2014, 00:21   #366
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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You may be right.

If the owners wanted to attempt a salvage, then they would most likely attempt to do it from Nantucket, before "Be Good Too" is swept east toward France in the gulf stream.
Where was it that that Newick tri got lifted from the waters by a Russian ship long ago. I can't remember the details, but I thought it got picked up off Norway, or up that way??
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Old 18-01-2014, 00:40   #367
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Gulf Streamer. Capsized 300 miles south of Nantucket and was salvaged several months late 700 miles east of there according to this:

The Lowell Sun 29 October 1976 Page 37 - Newspapers.com
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Old 18-01-2014, 01:02   #368
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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There is still quite a lot of misunderstanding amongst the posts here. This article is fantastic and very complete.
Good find, that report.

Sure sounds like they never hit the extreme weather I experienced in that area long ago.

Doesn't even sound like the extreme rough waves that can occur around those Gulf stream eddies that capsized Phil Weld's Gulfstreamer trimaran.

More like a freak wave that hit them while their rudders were 'locked hard to port', resulting in the bent inward port rudder..

Quote:
We now set up the boat to motorsail itself in a fore-reaching configuration under just the double-reefed main (there was no third reef). We locked the helm off hard to port to keep her from rounding up and were making progress eastwards at 4-5 knots. This seemed stable, though we were still getting whacked occasionally by waves on the starboard bow. side
Sounds as though the rudder shafts were just underspec.
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Old 18-01-2014, 01:07   #369
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Gulf Streamer. Capsized 300 miles south of Nantucket and was salvaged several months late 700 miles east of there according to this:

The Lowell Sun 29 October 1976 Page 37 - Newspapers.com
Good find,.... so it was Phil's boat that got picked up by the Russians. I didn't even remember that....old age I guess.
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Old 18-01-2014, 03:38   #370
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Since this thread seems to be going at 150 posts per day, I want to refer to something said, maybe 200 posts ago. There were several suggestions of going over the side and sawing off the rudder posts. I wonder if anyone suggesting that has ever tried to work under water on a boat in the open ocean, let alone in a calm anchorage? To think you can hold onto a moving boat and put pressure(hacksaw blade?) , and cut SS is probably dreaming. When I was about 25 years younger than anyone on that Cat, I managed to caulk about 60 foot of seam for an old wooden boat getting ready for Antigua Race week. I tried with scuba tanks and could not work with the clumsiness of it, so did it free diving. I snorkeled almost everyday so I was in great shape, but this was so exhausting that I could not even crew the next day. This was in a flat calm anchorage, so in the rolling sea, Good F@#$%^ Luck. Maybe Loyd Bridges, but not the average sailor. Just another opinion. _____Grant.
I'd also suggest they've never actually seen a rudder! There's no bare shaft visible to cut - the rudder butts up against the hull, usually with a thrust washer in between. And to hacksaw through 40mm of stainless steel bar - even on dry land, would take hours. (And lots of hacksaw blades.)
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Old 18-01-2014, 03:51   #371
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by 1ercru View Post
.

It would be hard to believe that a rudder stock could resist serious, continuous, downward blows from desperate men with a BFHammer.
I find it easy to believe. When you bend a shaft or tube, it's no longer circular in section. The shaft would bend inside the bearing. It would be SERIOUSLY jammed.

However, you might succeed in driving the entire shat/tube/bearing assembly out through the hull, leaving maybe a 4 inch hole....
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Old 18-01-2014, 06:26   #372
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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I find it easy to believe. When you bend a shaft or tube, it's no longer circular in section. The shaft would bend inside the bearing. It would be SERIOUSLY jammed.

However, you might succeed in driving the entire shat/tube/bearing assembly out through the hull, leaving maybe a 4 inch hole....
I completely disagree with the bending of the shaft and it bending inside the bearing. But it doesn't matter. The point is wouldn't you have at least tried ????
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Old 18-01-2014, 07:06   #373
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1.5 inch solid rod for unsupported rudders sounds very small. My 13000 lb 33 footer has 1.5 inch solid bronze, but is full keel with attached rudder- supported top and bottom bearings and hence has lasted 47 years without a blip.
Yes, stainless is stiffer, but for a boat that size that can generate big loads?. They don't heel under load, which unloads rudders and rig in monos- so they need strong rudder stocks IMHO. Probably at least 3 inch tubing.

I agree with general thought that rudders need to be stronger in newer boats these days. Have you ever heard of a car where the steering wheel or system breaks under heavy load? No, because that would be a disaster. I put steering system integrity as #2 priority. #1 is keeping water out, #3 is keeping rig up.
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Old 18-01-2014, 08:25   #374
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

That "extra" support for the coachroof mentioned in post #347 is the mast support. I think it's in the CAD pic too. Lotsa cats have this.
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Old 18-01-2014, 08:26   #375
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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I find it easy to believe. When you bend a shaft or tube, it's no longer circular in section. The shaft would bend inside the bearing. It would be SERIOUSLY jammed.

However, you might succeed in driving the entire shat/tube/bearing assembly out through the hull, leaving maybe a 4 inch hole....
"Be Good Too" rudders are foam core and float. You cannot just push the rudder post down and out the bottom of the boat as its floatation would keep it in place.

You would have to dive with a hammer and bust off the fiber glass shell and then all the foam. Doing all that while the hull is going up and down trying to knock you out. This would not be easy in anything but calm water.

The rudder post was up under the stern step, so you would have to drill or hammer a hole through the step and use a rod to push the rudder post down.

Doing all this would have taken hours and they had another weather front coming at them.
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