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Old 17-01-2014, 18:22   #331
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Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I think there are a couple of threads on CF about CE brass thru hulls in Europe that fail within a couple of years. Lagoon, for one, recommends replacing them every 4-5 years!

As for electrical, all the French CE-certified production boats I see are electrical nightmares. They make me very happy that I don't own one. And I am not talking tinned wire - I personally think that is over-rated. I see poor electrical design and engineering, cheap-ass components, puzzling sub-panels and panel locations, "hidden" components, unbelievable expectations as to operation, etc. Really - I rarely see a single French CE-certified system that I wouldn't rip out completely and redo myself.

As for the rudder, the engineering and build are plain ridiculous, and the spin Tarjan is putting on it is shameful.

Mark
What you personally think is correct or proper is up to you , but I don't see 1000000s of boats in the med causing problems. The proof is in the pudding

Having modified Jeaneaus , Beneteaus, and Hanses , I would not have any concerns as to the reliability of such wiring , or it's safety. The vast majority of such wiring is trunked

I once helped my mate fix the wiring on his American import four winns , jeepers that was junk

Catamarans , well you get what you deserve !
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:24   #332
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
ABYC does not require tinned wire, never did.

Interesting. I do know they "recommend" tinned wire, but you may be right that it may not be required. But the plain fact is that european boat builders have never heard of tinned wire (not even guys like Royal Huisman) while at least the better US builders do use it

Agreed . . . CE does not mandate any particular threads, merely materials must survive 5 years. ISO standards , which are not mandatory for CE compliance , says,very little about threads ,( neither does ABYC )

CE allows mismatched threads, and it allows unsecured/unbraced ball valves. Both of which are very bad practice. And the 5 year standard is ridiculous for a safety component on such an expensive item. Do you think masts, keels and rudders should also only last 5 years?

I've seen no published data backing your claims for seacocks in Europe.

The claim I made about Europe was "I can point you at websites showing European boats that have had fizzed brass thru hulls" That part is a simple fact, not a claim about 'data'.

I also said that the insurance claims data I have seen do not show a significant difference in seacock claims in US vs Europe. It is actually surprisingly low in both places. Are you saying you have seen statistical data that suggest otherwise?



But as you say back to the rudder held on by a sets-screw!

Dave
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:34   #333
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Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
........
The trouble Evans is you beleive in too much propaganda

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issu...re_5632-1.html

Ce does not specify threads. The use of BSP , BSPT ( nptt) in tru hulls is a common problem on both sides of the altantic.

ABYC also allows unsupported ball valves , seen loads on US boats.

I did not say there were no issues with brass, but the lack of bonding and no AC earth to DC neg means underwater corrosion is much less an issue of GRP boats in Europe then the practice in the US , where combined with porter 110vac installation practices shoreside , tends to generate far more impressed corrosion issues.

I suggest you survey the number of galvanic isolators sold in the EU versus the USA, and then ask yourself why !


I have never argued the current CE spec on the underwater materials is correct, if you understand how the CE was brought into being , you will understand the reason the 5 year clause is there. It has been reviewed and will now say 15 whenever the next revision is released. It will not mandate a specific material.
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:34   #334
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

^^ just ask an ABYC guy . . . the tinned wire requirement is "UL 1426 marine grade wire". I forget that UL also sets (optional) marine standards.
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:38   #335
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^ just ask an ABYC guy . . . the tinned wire requirement is "UL 1426 marine grade wire". I forget that UL also sets (optional) marine standards.
That requirement is not contained in the ABYC document to my knowledge and also the article above from a very respected source confirms it.

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Old 17-01-2014, 18:39   #336
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Ce does not specify threads.

Yes. I know we agree on that. BUT ABYC does NOT allow mismatched threads (which CE does allow because it does not say anything about them at all). I just double checked on that.

ABYC also allows unsupported ball valves , seen loads on US boats.

That is only acceptable if they pass both a dynamic and a static side load test. Those tests are decently hard to pass if the thru hull is 1" or less. Most of the ones you see will not in fact pass. And by the way, this is a UL standard and not ABYC.

I suggest you survey the number of galvanic isolators sold in the EU versus the USA, and then ask yourself why !

fear marketing . . .done better in the good old USA.

Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That requirement is not contained in the ABYC document to my knowledge and also the article above from a very respected source confirms it.

mmmm practical sailor gets things wrong all the time. (note I am not saying they are here . . .technically ABYC appears to recommend the UL requirement). Their editor is not any sort of professional engineer nor does he sit on any of the committees. My actually wife sits on the ABYC technical committee (she is technical director for BoatUS.
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:48   #337
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

estarzinger & goboatingnow, Thanks for the wiring and seacock update.

Now lets get back to RUDDERS
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:49   #338
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
estarzinger & goboatingnow, Thanks for the wiring and seacock update.

Now lets get back to RUDDERS
They just seem to fall off , next......

Dave
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:51   #339
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
estarzinger & goboatingnow, Thanks for the wiring and seacock update.

Now lets get back to RUDDERS

MMMM . . . you do remember that this boat also had (several) major electrical failures?
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:53   #340
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pirate re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
MMMM . . . you do remember that this boat also had (several) major electrical failures?
Damn those CE standards...
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:57   #341
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
mmmm practical sailor gets things wrong all the time. (note I am not saying they are here . . .technically ABYC appears to recommend the UL requirement). Their editor is not any sort of professional engineer nor does he sit on any of the committees. My actually wife sits on the ABYC technical committee (she is technical director for BoatUS.
One last go Evans UL 1426 see section 2. " conductors" does not " require" tinned conductors. https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....1426.1986.pdf

Don't drink the Kool-aid , anchor did a snow job

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Old 17-01-2014, 18:58   #342
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
MMMM . . . you do remember that this boat also had (several) major electrical failures?
Tinned or bare copper wire would not have made a difference to the alternator and starter getting a salt water bath and shorting out.
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Old 17-01-2014, 19:58   #343
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Uncontrolled Jibes

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I'm not reading it that way.

We got hit very hard by one big wave, all across the front of the boat, lots of water spurting in, Doane said. We were having problems controlling the boat. (We) did a couple uncontrolled jibes. The boat spun around in circles twice.

Look at that video again.

Read more: Portsmouth man rescued from sailboat | Local News - WMUR Home
Those uncontrolled jibes could easily be explained if they were surfing down big seas. The rotation direction of the water at the crest of a wave is the opposite of that at the bottom. This tends to force most any vessel that is moving down the backside of the wave to bear off one way or the other.

And depending on your deployment of sail area, the situation can become exacerbated.
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Old 17-01-2014, 20:05   #344
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Tinned or bare copper wire would not have made a difference to the alternator and starter getting a salt water bath and shorting out.
Look all this started when I answered a simple question about boat building standards in the USA, and then goboating jumped down my throat and was condescending.

Boat building standards would seem (to me) to be a completely relevant topic for this incident, given that so many things broke.

As to your comment above . . they had a battery charging failure well before the rudders broke . . . unless you have some inside information . . . you do not know what the cause of that was. And neither do we know the reason for the failure of the generator.

I am done and gone.
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Old 17-01-2014, 20:10   #345
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Storm in a Ketch Rigged Vessel

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.... But multiple accidental gybes including two full 360's! A very dangerous situation in any boat!

If they had any kind of winds, it is a wonder that the rig was still up! If true, I don't know if this speaks to bad design, or seamanship, or both. I must say, I find it hard to believe that sailors with the experience of Hank Schmitt and Charles Doane would have continued to sail the boat anywhere near dead downwind if that was occurring. If it was a problem with the autopilot, I am confident that they would have steered by hand - they had a crew of four, afterall. If, on the other hand, the boat was that lacking in balance and tracking ability, they did well to get that far.....

Brad
Sometimes you are just forced into going 'with the flow', be it dead downwind or not. Here is my experience in that same area of the ocean.
Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Im sailing from the Chesapeake Bay down to St.Thomas, USVI on Christmas eve in a heavy full-keel 47 wood cutter staysail ketch. I know there is a storm approaching, but I figure if I can get out past the Gulf stream (avoid the northerly wind against the north flowing current) before it hits, then I will run with the wind and waves in the open ocean. It turns out to be a much more intense storm than predicted with a very intense center that moves just north of Bermuda. I experience 50-60 knots of wind for two and a half days. I am surfing BIG but organized seas using a hankerchief-size staysail. Its reported that two other vessels nearer the center of the low pressure are sunk in the same storm. I have two other inexperienced crew onboard and we are doing 3 hour shifts, as that is as long as you can concentrate on avoiding a broach.

I decide the wind is high enough to run under bare poles and save the staysail from gibing itself to death, and maybe keep my bowsprit out of the backface of the wave at the bottom of the trough. We slow down all right, but now the crest of the waves are breaking over my stern and completely filling my cockpit. Tons of water is captured in the cockpit floor space and spills thru the engine hatch seams located there. Its drowning my brand new diesel engine, and the slower surfing speed has aggravated our broaching tendency. Bilges getting full of water.

Back up with the staysail until we are all so tired, I decided to heave to with a rudder forcing her to windward and a backed staysail forcing her off wind. Finally some much needed rest for all of us. I cannot think of a drogue arrangement that I could have left UNATTENDED in this situation, either in reference to broaching tendencies caused by the opposite rotation of the surface waters at the crest of the wave as opposed to that in the trough, nor with reference to the amounts of water I was collecting in the bilges.

Thats one time when I developed my affinity for ketch rigged vessels....never used a mainsail in that storm
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