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Old 17-01-2014, 16:40   #316
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
On topic but from a different angle and I did ask this earlier but the question was probably overlooked in the rush of replies to other things.
Who pays for the Coastguard/ Navy for these rescues.Is in taxpayer funded ,insurance claim ,annual premium,the owner?
Although I've been to the states a few times but fortunately never had the need to use medical facilities and probably watch to much TV but was of the understanding that the medical or hospital system is pretty much user pays so thought these rescue situations may be the same.
Chris
The Coast guard has an annual budget of almost $10 billion per year which comes out of the federal budget and they spend every penny of it. If they aren't rescuing people then they are training for rescuing people. Either way it is about the same expenditure. I will guarantee that this is not the first time the swimmer went in the water or the helicopter landed and refueled on a moving ship. There is no fine or fee.
If you get hurt in the US the emergency rooms will treat you even if you don't have insurance or money. But that will be emergency only and only enough to get you back out the door. They will still bill you and may even sue you to try to collect. If you get cancer well then that's not an emergency is it so you are f**ked.
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Old 17-01-2014, 16:50   #317
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
On topic but from a different angle and I did ask this earlier but the question was probably overlooked in the rush of replies to other things.
Who pays for the Coastguard/ Navy for these rescues.Is in taxpayer funded ,insurance claim ,annual premium,the owner?
Although I've been to the states a few times but fortunately never had the need to use medical facilities and probably watch to much TV but was of the understanding that the medical or hospital system is pretty much user pays so thought these rescue situations may be the same.
Chris
The US Coast Guard is a branch of the United States Armed Forces
The Coast Guard is a maritime, military, multi-mission service unique among the U.S. military branches for having a maritime law enforcement mission (with jurisdiction in both domestic and international waters).

The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry was part of their US Coast Guards job and did not cost the crew or owners for the rescue.

An estimate for the rescue would be about $50,000 for the Sikorsky HH-60 Jayhawk helicopter and the fuel stop aboard the U.S. Navy missile destroyer Ross
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Old 17-01-2014, 16:50   #318
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

What's the part about the rudder post being held in by a set screw? Am I misreading that or did they have a serious quality control snafu?
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Old 17-01-2014, 16:57   #319
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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What's the part about the rudder post being held in by a set screw? Am I misreading that or did they have a serious quality control snafu?
You read it right. The port rudder post had a set screw shear off and no through bolt.
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:00   #320
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Just a curiosity, what is the equivalent of CE certificate for europenan boats in the US ? Can anybody make his boat and set sail offshore there ??
Basically anyone can build a boat and sell it for offshore use.

The US has ABS and ABYC, but they are optional (for small pleasure craft). And even some boats that say they meet ABYC actually don't (like Beneteau). The USCG has a very minimal set of standards that are required (stuff like colreg nav lights, and bilge blowers for gasoline engines).
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:13   #321
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pirate re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I believe Beneteau (being an EU company) has to build to CE Standards... the USA built 2001 331 I got in the BVI's in '06 was CE plated..
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:21   #322
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Beneteau USA builds to CE standards. The claim in Aeroyacht's PR said the Alpha 42 was built to ABS standards but I saw no evidence of that in the building blog.
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:21   #323
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

So Boaty I want to know what you would do. Others have said that they would crawl in a life raft rather abandon this boat in these conditions. Is this what you would do?
You have more experience than most of us put together and I respect your views.

Still love ya, man.
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:27   #324
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

That is asking a man to commit forum suicide. Whatever he says the pack are waiting to attack. Lead on Macduff, into battle or stay quiet, either way you lose.

Coops.
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:34   #325
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I believe Beneteau (being an EU company) has to build to CE Standards... the USA built 2001 331 I got in the BVI's in '06 was CE plated..
It's not because they are a European registered company. Its because they are selling boats in Europe. An american company selling boats in Europe also has to pass CE. The USA just does not have a similar required standard for boats sold in America. ABYC is optional and Beneteau chooses not to comply with parts of it to save money.

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Beneteau USA builds to CE standards.
Yes, Beneteau builds to CE. Which are not very high in some areas (plumbing and electrical).

They claim to also build to ABYC (actually more precisely they claim to be completely NMMA certified, and NMMA requires all ABYC), and they in fact do not - their thru hulls just for instance clearly don't meet ABYC standards. They have received some sort of special temporary exception from NMMA, which is not public and does not seem like it will ever expire because NMMA wants Beneteau as a dues paying member.

Back to the thread . . .rudders . . . when will enough have broken that people will wake up? Just imagine if 2% of new automobile axles broke!!
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Old 17-01-2014, 17:51   #326
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

[QUOTE=estarzinger;1443183]



Yes, Beneteau builds to CE. Which are not very high in some areas (plumbing and electrical).


/QUOTE]

The average CE AC system is speced to higher standards then ABYC. as for plumbing , if you mean seacocks. Yes that's an under spec which will be correct in the next revision. But outside that plumbing specs are good under CE /ISO.

The vast majority of seacock issues in the US are due to poor choices on bonding. Which explains why brass/ DNz seacocks are still in boats in the UK /France /med 20 years later, yet are happily fizzing away on a US wired boat. I've not seen yards full of boats getting their seacocks replaced in Europe (where you actually cannot now buy a bronze seacock as nobody makes them )

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Old 17-01-2014, 18:04   #327
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

[QUOTE=goboatingnow;1443191]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post



Yes, Beneteau builds to CE. Which are not very high in some areas (plumbing and electrical).


/QUOTE]

The average CE AC system is speced to higher standards then ABYC.

mmmmm . . . CE has never heard of tinned wire, which is required in ABYC. It is definitely "better" . . .how much "better" we could debate (but I would rather not )

as for plumbing , if you mean seacocks. Yes that's an under spec which will be correct in the next revision. But outside that plumbing specs are good under CE /ISO.

I will enjoy seeing how CE is "fixed". It is a mess right now . . . poor materials allowed, mixed threads allowed, inline unsupported ball valves allowed.

The vast majority of seacock issues in the US are due to poor choices on bonding. Which explains why brass/ DNz seacocks are still in boats in the UK /France /med 20 years later, yet are happily fizzing away on a US wired boat.

Excuse me, that just BS, on both points. I can point you at websites showing European boats that have had fizzed brass thru hulls. And the number of cases in the US is not higher (at least according to the insurance claims data).
And back to the thread . . . we do have 'too many' (IMHO) broken rudders on both sides of the ocean.
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Old 17-01-2014, 18:14   #328
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Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

Whatever way you quote , makes it impossible to requote

ABYC does not require tinned wire, never did.

CE does not mandate any particular threads, merely materials must survive 5 years. ISO standards , which are not mandatory for CE compliance , says,very little about threads ,( neither does ABYC )

ISO standard on AC , which required whole boat RCD protection for years is significantly safer as its the wiring standards and panel standards for AC.

I've seen no published data backing your claims for seacocks in Europe. Other then a partly hysterical UK press article. I have has several beneteaus from the early and mid 90s from med marinas surveyed , with foscus on underwater fittings , they were in the opinion of the surveyor all " acceptable "

Is bronze better, yes , is titanium better again , yes. No argument.

But as you say back to the rudder held on by a sets-screw!

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Old 17-01-2014, 18:16   #329
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I think there are a couple of threads on CF about CE brass thru hulls in Europe that fail within a couple of years. Lagoon, for one, recommends replacing them every 4-5 years!

As for electrical, all the French CE-certified production boats I see are electrical nightmares. They make me very happy that I don't own one. And I am not talking tinned wire - I personally think that is over-rated. I see poor electrical design and engineering, cheap-ass components, puzzling sub-panels and panel locations, "hidden" components, unbelievable expectations as to operation, etc. Really - I rarely see a single French CE-certified system that I wouldn't rip out completely and redo myself.

As for the rudder, the engineering and build are plain ridiculous, and the spin Tarjan is putting on it is shameful.

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Old 17-01-2014, 18:20   #330
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pirate re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote: Sandcrab

So Boaty I want to know what you would do. Others have said that they would crawl in a life raft rather abandon this boat in these conditions. Is this what you would do?
You have more experience than most of us put together and I respect your views.

Still love ya, man.
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As has been stated it was down to the owner and his wife to make the call.. and if I remember rightly the CG will not take only part of the crew.. its all or nothing.. so if the owner said we go.. I'd have to follow..
I will say that with the Catalac I mentioned earlier when my single crew member appeared in the companion way with the manual bilge pump in her hands and reported the water was now shin deep on the cabin floor I Pan Pan'd the Spanish CG and they came out and stood by in case she went down before we got in.. did not have to make that call fortunately..
As for this one.. with just my normal crew..?
I think I'd have done what I could till the last minute after putting a call out to the CG stating the situation and asking them to stand by in case of her breaking up and sinking.. progress report times (4hrs) would be set up along with position updates as we went
She was reportedly riding easy so likely would have raised the main (double reefed) which would have had her fore reaching with the rudder jammed one way.. next would have been to attack the engine/power problems.. don't know how the access is set up but assuming the same as the Lagoon should be fairly dry to work down there...
Once that had been sorted (if possible).. I would have taken it easy till the weather moderated then had a go at dropping the spinning rudder.. hoping to bejaysus it did not sink.. laid ahull..
Having no idea what tools etc were on board its impossible to say whether a 'fix' could be managed but.. its a start..
Next would be the jammed rudder when calm enough to ride
ahull again... assuming it had been possible to get both engines operating 100% again.. (even one would maybe be effect towing the dinghy on the other side)... This would need to be removed before any good progress could be made.. once again hard to say,,, head for the mainland..? or Bermuda..?
don't know her fuel range or how much she was carrying.. it would have to be an on the spot call depending on position and weather.. the reefs to the N of Bermuda are not appealing
There's a lot of 'What if's' and I'd be arrogant to assume I'd fix it and save the day... but that's the way I'd go...
Working on what's stated was the situation when they abandoned.
Oh... and my crew is usually happy as long as I look cheerful.. even with a bilge pump that's ripped outa rotten ply in their hand..
This is not a call to defame the Skipper/Owner or crew.. it was a good call in their situation/opinion
This is just an answer to a question as to what I would have done.
Have never abandoned yet.. and hope I never have to..
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