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17-01-2014, 13:03
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#286
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun
Spade rudders are not a problem on a cruising vessel. The rudder tube, IMO, should be well above the waterline, like 2' above the waterline. No matter what happens to the rudder, bent 45 to the side/whatever, the rudder tube should hold and not allow a water breach. With the tube well above the waterline, unbolting the rudder post and dropping the whole thing would allow for getting rid of a problem and at the same time keeping the water out. Fashioning a make-shift rudder would be a lot easier if the bent rudder was gone.
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If the shaft is bent, it's likely at least some of the bent shaft will be inside the tube. That would be why the rudder was jammed. Releasing and dropping it (assuming it would sink) would almost certainly be impossible.
And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
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17-01-2014, 13:09
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#287
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tavernier, Fl
Boat: Outremer 50
Posts: 750
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
You'd think there would be some combination of sail and engine that would have them nearly going straight, wouldn't you?
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Not necessarily, when it happened to me the boat would not stop turning to port even with the starboard engine in full reverse. Tried to stream warps with buoys, anchors etc... Like you read about but the drogue was the only thing with enough grab to keep us going straight. Made for very slow 200 mile trip back to port.
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17-01-2014, 13:12
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#288
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Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Greece - Me - Michigan
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 3,489
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
If the shaft is bent, it's likely at least some of the bent shaft will be inside the tube. That would be why the rudder was jammed. Releasing and dropping it (assuming it would sink) would almost certainly be impossible.
And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
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Dotdun said 2 feet, not 2 inches. But either way, water would be super easy to stop from coming in from the tube even at 2 inches below the water line.
And maybe you couldn't get the rudder out, but wouldn't you at least try? Wouldn't you be willing to take a hammer to your deck if need be to bust a hole directly above the rudder stock, and drive the shaft down with a stantion? Did they even have proper tools on board?
__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante
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17-01-2014, 13:18
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#289
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave852
Not necessarily, when it happened to me the boat would not stop turning to port even with the starboard engine in full reverse. Tried to stream warps with buoys, anchors etc... Like you read about but the drogue was the only thing with enough grab to keep us going straight. Made for very slow 200 mile trip back to port.
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Yeah, but they are saying with sails it turned one way, with engine the other.
So a combination of both?
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17-01-2014, 13:19
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#290
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Boat: JBW club 420, MFG Bandit, Snark
Posts: 871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
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A wooden plug, pretty standard equipment for any boat, could have stopped that. If they left those behind surely something aboard that boat could fill that hole.
Not enough was tried to bring that boat in.
I've seen a cutting board from the galley keep a rudder in a boat. I've seen a piece of foil in place of a missing fuse keep a boat charging. Switching the starters has been mentioned.
There are people that could have gotten that boat to port. I'm not claiming to be one of them, but I've certainly been to sea with some.
__________________
I love big boats and I can not lie.
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17-01-2014, 13:20
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#291
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran
Dotdun said 2 feet, not 2 inches. But either way, water would be super easy to stop from coming in from the tube even at 2 inches below the water line.
And maybe you couldn't get the rudder out, but wouldn't you at least try? Wouldn't you be willing to take a hammer to your deck if need be to bust a hole directly above the rudder stock, and drive the shaft down with a stantion? Did they even have proper tools on board?
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I'm thinking that if the shaft was so jammed they couldn't move it with the steering, it's pretty unlikely they'd be able to hammer it out. But yes, it might have been worth trying.
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17-01-2014, 13:23
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#292
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: Mahe 36, Helia 44 Evo, MY 37
Posts: 5,731
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran
I'm sorry but I also can't rationalize their decisions on the repairs. If the one rudder was spinning why not pop it off, drill some holes in it, and re-install. Or, tie it off in a straight position. The then could drop the bent rudder and try to make headway. For such an experienced crew, they didn't seem to know what the heck to do.
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Most Cats have foam filled rudders.
They float.
You would have to be really crafty and dive with a hammer and break all the foam shell off the rudder before pushing it down and out of the bottom of the boat.
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17-01-2014, 13:40
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#293
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tavernier, Fl
Boat: Outremer 50
Posts: 750
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
Yeah, but they are saying with sails it turned one way, with engine the other.
So a combination of both?
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My take from the account is they only had one engine at the time they were trying but I understand your point as the logical mind might conclude from his account that a little less or more of one form of propulsion should have done it. But as I was not there I have to assume they tried what they tried to the fullest extent possible so was keeping my observations focused on what they appear not to have tried. I say appear because I think the facts or story will continue to unfold.
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17-01-2014, 13:41
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#294
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,823
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
If the shaft is bent, it's likely at least some of the bent shaft will be inside the tube. That would be why the rudder was jammed. Releasing and dropping it (assuming it would sink) would almost certainly be impossible.
And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
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I stated 2 feet, not 2 inches. My rudder tube extends 36 inches above the waterline (I just measured it). And the tube is supported very well at the top. I'd like to think it would stay in-tact.
Yes, the post can jam inside the tube, that's why everyone should can a BFH (big hammer) on-board. Install the emergency tiller, remove the locking collar and pound away. If you could grab the now removed rudder, it could be used to fashion a temporary one using dinghy oars, bimini frame piping, etc., whatever MacGyver would do.
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17-01-2014, 13:47
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#295
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warwick RI
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 1,873
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Maybe we can convince myth busters to try a full scale experiment on a 40+ foot cat to be able to fashion a make shift rudder. At least we'd have something to go off of.
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
-Molon Labe
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17-01-2014, 13:56
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#296
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,135
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran
I don't thing these guys abandoned ship because insurance was going to pay up for the boat. I'm guessing from all the problems they had Alpha Yachts is going to be building them a new one for FREE. Like holy crap can anything else have broken?
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You have to give Gunther some credit though as he is the one to go in the water to inspect the rudders and the last to abandon ship.
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While I generally agree with your thoughts, I think that you have confused Alpha Yachts with Santa Claus! I very much doubt that a replacement will be offered.
And the owner seems to have behaved well. We don't know much about the technical skills of any of the crew, so some of the solutions proposed herein may well have been outside their abilities. I don't know who made the decision to leave at that time, but it seems to have been ill-considered at best!
Finally, the rudder design looks woefully bad to me, compared to what I have seen on other cats (and certainly monos, which are only vaguely comparable). To describe them as massive is really BS... sheesh!
This sort of event is what leads to our endless discussions about what defines a "blue water" boat. I don't reckon this one fits the bill!
Cheers,
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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17-01-2014, 13:57
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#297
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Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Greece - Me - Michigan
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 3,489
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotemar
Most Cats have foam filled rudders.
They float.
You would have to be really crafty and dive with a hammer and break all the foam shell off the rudder before pushing it down and out of the bottom of the boat.
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Well, I can be crafty as a cat when my life and boat are on the line. Doubtful that the rudder has so much buoyancy that they couldn't simply be pushed or pulled out. I just wonder, did they do all that you would have done? They had this problem for 50 hours, would you have slept even one of those 50 or would you have constantly kept working on the problems?
I know many of us are arm-chairing this but really I feel fairly close to understanding the situation. Two years ago on my Atlantic crossing we were hit by a 72 hour strong gale and heavy confused seas. Having never been in weather like this and 600 miles from Horta, I was scared shitless. We had water weeping in from many places of the boat. I basically didn't sleep during this time. Someone was at the helm 100% of the time, we did bilge checks every two hours, we had all our emergency rescue equipment at the ready (in fact my crew started to sleep in their immersion suits). We where broadsided by a wave large enough that it bent my communication arch on the back of the boat and threw me across the cockpit. We did have a small rudder problem and many other problems that needed to be dealt with such as a blown out batten. But what do you do? Figure it out until it's fixed.
And I'm a neophyte compared to the two skippers on board. That's what I just don't understand, how could all of this have happened in such a cascade that they couldn't save the boat. It just seems like such a fatalist attitude instead of the fight to the death one I'm more inclined towards.
__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante
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17-01-2014, 14:03
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#299
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 5,067
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Something everyone is forgetting is that the owners wife was on board and that just melts all that testosterone away.
__________________
Slowly going senile but enjoying the ride.
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17-01-2014, 14:09
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#300
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warwick RI
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 1,873
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
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Well said.
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
-Molon Labe
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