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Old 17-01-2014, 14:03   #286
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Spade rudders are not a problem on a cruising vessel. The rudder tube, IMO, should be well above the waterline, like 2' above the waterline. No matter what happens to the rudder, bent 45 to the side/whatever, the rudder tube should hold and not allow a water breach. With the tube well above the waterline, unbolting the rudder post and dropping the whole thing would allow for getting rid of a problem and at the same time keeping the water out. Fashioning a make-shift rudder would be a lot easier if the bent rudder was gone.

If the shaft is bent, it's likely at least some of the bent shaft will be inside the tube. That would be why the rudder was jammed. Releasing and dropping it (assuming it would sink) would almost certainly be impossible.

And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:09   #287
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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You'd think there would be some combination of sail and engine that would have them nearly going straight, wouldn't you?

Not necessarily, when it happened to me the boat would not stop turning to port even with the starboard engine in full reverse. Tried to stream warps with buoys, anchors etc... Like you read about but the drogue was the only thing with enough grab to keep us going straight. Made for very slow 200 mile trip back to port.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:12   #288
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
If the shaft is bent, it's likely at least some of the bent shaft will be inside the tube. That would be why the rudder was jammed. Releasing and dropping it (assuming it would sink) would almost certainly be impossible.

And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
Dotdun said 2 feet, not 2 inches. But either way, water would be super easy to stop from coming in from the tube even at 2 inches below the water line.

And maybe you couldn't get the rudder out, but wouldn't you at least try? Wouldn't you be willing to take a hammer to your deck if need be to bust a hole directly above the rudder stock, and drive the shaft down with a stantion? Did they even have proper tools on board?
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:18   #289
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Not necessarily, when it happened to me the boat would not stop turning to port even with the starboard engine in full reverse. Tried to stream warps with buoys, anchors etc... Like you read about but the drogue was the only thing with enough grab to keep us going straight. Made for very slow 200 mile trip back to port.
Yeah, but they are saying with sails it turned one way, with engine the other.

So a combination of both?
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:19   #290
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And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
A wooden plug, pretty standard equipment for any boat, could have stopped that. If they left those behind surely something aboard that boat could fill that hole.

Not enough was tried to bring that boat in.

I've seen a cutting board from the galley keep a rudder in a boat. I've seen a piece of foil in place of a missing fuse keep a boat charging. Switching the starters has been mentioned.

There are people that could have gotten that boat to port. I'm not claiming to be one of them, but I've certainly been to sea with some.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:20   #291
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Dotdun said 2 feet, not 2 inches. But either way, water would be super easy to stop from coming in from the tube even at 2 inches below the water line.

And maybe you couldn't get the rudder out, but wouldn't you at least try? Wouldn't you be willing to take a hammer to your deck if need be to bust a hole directly above the rudder stock, and drive the shaft down with a stantion? Did they even have proper tools on board?
I'm thinking that if the shaft was so jammed they couldn't move it with the steering, it's pretty unlikely they'd be able to hammer it out. But yes, it might have been worth trying.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:23   #292
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I'm sorry but I also can't rationalize their decisions on the repairs. If the one rudder was spinning why not pop it off, drill some holes in it, and re-install. Or, tie it off in a straight position. The then could drop the bent rudder and try to make headway. For such an experienced crew, they didn't seem to know what the heck to do.
Most Cats have foam filled rudders.

They float.

You would have to be really crafty and dive with a hammer and break all the foam shell off the rudder before pushing it down and out of the bottom of the boat.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:40   #293
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Yeah, but they are saying with sails it turned one way, with engine the other.

So a combination of both?

My take from the account is they only had one engine at the time they were trying but I understand your point as the logical mind might conclude from his account that a little less or more of one form of propulsion should have done it. But as I was not there I have to assume they tried what they tried to the fullest extent possible so was keeping my observations focused on what they appear not to have tried. I say appear because I think the facts or story will continue to unfold.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:41   #294
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Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
If the shaft is bent, it's likely at least some of the bent shaft will be inside the tube. That would be why the rudder was jammed. Releasing and dropping it (assuming it would sink) would almost certainly be impossible.

And even if you could get rid of the rudder, having an open tube that ends 2 inches above the waterline isn't going to keep the water out.
I stated 2 feet, not 2 inches. My rudder tube extends 36 inches above the waterline (I just measured it). And the tube is supported very well at the top. I'd like to think it would stay in-tact.

Yes, the post can jam inside the tube, that's why everyone should can a BFH (big hammer) on-board. Install the emergency tiller, remove the locking collar and pound away. If you could grab the now removed rudder, it could be used to fashion a temporary one using dinghy oars, bimini frame piping, etc., whatever MacGyver would do.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:47   #295
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Maybe we can convince myth busters to try a full scale experiment on a 40+ foot cat to be able to fashion a make shift rudder. At least we'd have something to go off of.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:56   #296
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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I don't thing these guys abandoned ship because insurance was going to pay up for the boat. I'm guessing from all the problems they had Alpha Yachts is going to be building them a new one for FREE. Like holy crap can anything else have broken?
.....
You have to give Gunther some credit though as he is the one to go in the water to inspect the rudders and the last to abandon ship.
While I generally agree with your thoughts, I think that you have confused Alpha Yachts with Santa Claus! I very much doubt that a replacement will be offered.

And the owner seems to have behaved well. We don't know much about the technical skills of any of the crew, so some of the solutions proposed herein may well have been outside their abilities. I don't know who made the decision to leave at that time, but it seems to have been ill-considered at best!

Finally, the rudder design looks woefully bad to me, compared to what I have seen on other cats (and certainly monos, which are only vaguely comparable). To describe them as massive is really BS... sheesh!

This sort of event is what leads to our endless discussions about what defines a "blue water" boat. I don't reckon this one fits the bill!

Cheers,

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Old 17-01-2014, 14:57   #297
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

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Most Cats have foam filled rudders.

They float.

You would have to be really crafty and dive with a hammer and break all the foam shell off the rudder before pushing it down and out of the bottom of the boat.
Well, I can be crafty as a cat when my life and boat are on the line. Doubtful that the rudder has so much buoyancy that they couldn't simply be pushed or pulled out. I just wonder, did they do all that you would have done? They had this problem for 50 hours, would you have slept even one of those 50 or would you have constantly kept working on the problems?

I know many of us are arm-chairing this but really I feel fairly close to understanding the situation. Two years ago on my Atlantic crossing we were hit by a 72 hour strong gale and heavy confused seas. Having never been in weather like this and 600 miles from Horta, I was scared shitless. We had water weeping in from many places of the boat. I basically didn't sleep during this time. Someone was at the helm 100% of the time, we did bilge checks every two hours, we had all our emergency rescue equipment at the ready (in fact my crew started to sleep in their immersion suits). We where broadsided by a wave large enough that it bent my communication arch on the back of the boat and threw me across the cockpit. We did have a small rudder problem and many other problems that needed to be dealt with such as a blown out batten. But what do you do? Figure it out until it's fixed.

And I'm a neophyte compared to the two skippers on board. That's what I just don't understand, how could all of this have happened in such a cascade that they couldn't save the boat. It just seems like such a fatalist attitude instead of the fight to the death one I'm more inclined towards.
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Old 17-01-2014, 14:59   #298
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pirate re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Originally Posted by Southern Star
Boatman, before you start expounding upon your vastly superior experience you might wish to consider the resume of the skipper of this boat. Hank Schmitt (erroneously referred to as Hank Schmidt in media reports) has purportedly averaged 100 days and 10,000 miles a year at sea over the last 20 years. He is the organizer (as well as a participant) in the annual NARC rally from Newport to St. Martin and is probably North America's best known delivery skipper.


Southern Star... before you start venting your spite.. go back through the posts and point out just one time I have had a go at either the Skipper or the crew.. I did make one joke about a good sailor saving the beer when the cooler was mentioned.. but assumed folk would be adult enough to take it for what it was..
A Joke..
As to the mans resume.. well good for him..
I've already said I'm a 'Trainee god' and have never stated I was the better man.. far from it I mock myself quite often on CF..
However when I read posts and analysis of situations I look at it through MY eyes and experiences... not the eyes and experiences of sailing gods like the Pardeys, Cornell or whoever else you choose to bow down before... their analysis is good for them..
But I'm not them and may see things differently... this does not make either of us right.. or wrong.. just different.
If my posts bother you put me on your ignore list... or make constructive comments about things...
Your staunch defence of the design of a boat that has failed dramatically is touching.. to say the least.. and that's your choice but its funny the only folk attacking me here are a CF Advisor.. and a Commercial member who may have a vested interest...
so may the Advisor for all I know...
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Old 17-01-2014, 15:03   #299
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Something everyone is forgetting is that the owners wife was on board and that just melts all that testosterone away.
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Old 17-01-2014, 15:09   #300
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re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Originally Posted by Southern Star
Boatman, before you start expounding upon your vastly superior experience you might wish to consider the resume of the skipper of this boat. Hank Schmitt (erroneously referred to as Hank Schmidt in media reports) has purportedly averaged 100 days and 10,000 miles a year at sea over the last 20 years. He is the organizer (as well as a participant) in the annual NARC rally from Newport to St. Martin and is probably North America's best known delivery skipper.


Southern Star... before you start venting your spite.. go back through the posts and point out just one time I have had a go at either the Skipper or the crew.. I did make one joke about a good sailor saving the beer when the cooler was mentioned.. but assumed folk would be adult enough to take it for what it was..
A Joke..
As to the mans resume.. well good for him..
I've already said I'm a 'Trainee god' and have never stated I was the better man.. far from it I mock myself quite often on CF..
However when I read posts and analysis of situations I look at it through MY eyes and experiences... not the eyes and experiences of sailing gods like the Pardeys, Cornell or whoever else you choose to bow down before... their analysis is good for them..
But I'm not them and may see things differently... this does not make either of us right.. or wrong.. just different.
If my posts bother you put me on your ignore list... or make constructive comments about things...
Your staunch defence of the design of a boat that has failed dramatically is touching.. to say the least.. and that's your choice but its funny the only folk attacking me here are a CF Advisor.. and a Commercial member who may have a vested interest...
so may the Advisor for all I know...
Well said.
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