Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-01-2014, 10:37   #271
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
By the way, here is the weather map at about the time they damaged the rudders. I have marked their rough position ("300nm off the Virginia coast") with a red X. You can see they just had a pretty strong front cross over them, and would have had some cross seas. And it is genuinely breeze (34 with gusts to 47).

Attachment 74159
I think they were a little more north of your indication. There were some coordinates on one of the helo videos I believe
__________________

__________________
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 10:39   #272
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

SPECIAL THANKS: Words cannot express how grateful we are to our helicopter flight crew. At a minimum, we can recognize them individually:

Lt. David Birky--pilot

Lt. John Poley--pilot

AST2 John Knight--aviation survival technician, 2nd class; rescue swimmer

AMT2 Brian Light--aviation maintenance technician, 2nd class; hoist operator

Thanks, guys! You were great!

We here on the CF thank the helicopter flight crew also.
Someday a few of us may be in the same situation. And Itís nice to know a fine hard working Coast Guard crew like this is out there in time of need.

HELICOPTER EVACUATION: Abandoning Be Good Too
__________________

__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 10:58   #273
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,424
Re: Alfa 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Exactly, spade rudders should not really be utilized on a cruising vessel. They are MUCH more acceptable to damage. Apparently these were bent (the shafts) when the vessel was thrown back by a huge wave.

Now if the rudder shaft gets bent it may likely not operate properly (steer the boat), and it will likely not seal itself in its housing, thus letting water into the vessel. if you take a look at many catamarans you will find that steering gear located in an aft compartment along with the engines and saildrive. So I suspect the water entered the engine areas and rendered them inoperable.
Spade rudders are not a problem on a cruising vessel. The rudder tube, IMO, should be well above the waterline, like 2' above the waterline. No matter what happens to the rudder, bent 45 to the side/whatever, the rudder tube should hold and not allow a water breach. With the tube well above the waterline, unbolting the rudder post and dropping the whole thing would allow for getting rid of a problem and at the same time keeping the water out. Fashioning a make-shift rudder would be a lot easier if the bent rudder was gone.
__________________
DotDun is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 11:03   #274
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
From those pictures the rudders are right at the stern. If you look at the scoop, I don't think they could have a very long rudder shaft and brace. I don't know the correct terms. In any case, put a quadrant on top of it, maybe 16" to 24" would be my guess. So if that whole assembly broke off on both hulls and they didn't have a bulkhead between the engines and rudder stock, both engine compartments would flood.
Interesting observations. I don't think they 'broke off' but rather the rudder shafts got bent,...rather badly. And from the looks of the size of those rudders I can see that happening rather easily it they were thrown over rather abruptly

Quote:
Some of you may remember the Catana that used a sea anchor in the Gulf of Lyon many years ago. When the bridle broke, the boat surged back and flipped, killing 3 experienced sailors. Cat's don't do well going backwards which is why my preference would be to never use a sea anchor.
To the contrary, I thoroughly believe in these parachute anchors as the ultimate 'sit back and let the storm blow itself out' . agreed you don't want to have a failure in a portion of the rigging


Quote:
As to why they were not running? I'd also guess that would have meant going north which wasn't desired or an option at the time.
Don't understand you? They were going south, and the northly wind would have pushed then south.
__________________
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 11:16   #275
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Boatman, before you start expounding upon your vastly superior experience you might wish to consider the resume of the skipper of this boat. Hank Schmitt (erroneously referred to as Hank Schmidt in media reports) has purportedly averaged 100 days and 10,000 miles a year at sea over the last 20 years. He is the organizer (as well as a participant) in the annual NARC rally from Newport to St. Martin and is probably North America's best known delivery skipper.

It is all well and fine to armchair quarterback, but one can rest assured that the decision to abandon ship was not taken lightly. Keep in mind that if the rudder shafts are bent in a position that seizes the rudders at an acute angle, the emergency tiller/s are useless, as is any attempt to steer with a drogue. What is more, as I understand it the owners were onboard and it would not surprise me if they preferred to abandon ship and make an insurance claim on the full value of their new boat, rather than end up with a new boat that might survive, but would do so with significant damage.

At this point all we can say with certainty is that we are happy to hear that captain and crew survived what must have been an ordeal in the North Atlantic at this time of year.

Brad
If you plot their position
(N36 52.145 W69 45.371 according to the video. 350 miles east Norfolk.)

And then have a look at this imaging of the Gulf Stream
http://rads.tudelft.nl/gulfstream/#fig1

...you will find that they were likely still in the stream, or just to the east side of it. In these northern areas of the stream you are very likely to encounter numerous 'eddies' that exist along the edges of the stream. In these eddies you can experience VERY unsettled conditions, including very abrupt, local rogue waves.


Here are some more images.
http://www.opc.ncep.noaa.gov/sst/GulfStream_compare.shtml

Here are some images of the eddies that can occur in the northern portions (very close to where they were)
Eddy Images

Perhaps some of you will remember Phil Weld, who while traveling to England from Newport to participant in the OSTAR transatlantic race from England to Newport RI, encountered one of these eddies and a freak wave that flipped his trimaran Gulfstreamer. He subsequently had a new boat built that he name Rogue Wave.
The story is remembered in his book “Moxie”
http://www.newfilmco.com/acbook.htm
First hand account of Gulfstreamer's capsize check out their position 39N 64W
OSTAR winner, Ocean Navigator

Here is another account by an accomplished sailor:
“In the 29 passages I’ve taken across the Gulf Stream, I’ve only encountered storm conditions on one occasion. I was not then a captain, and would not have sailed were I aware that a strong cold front would approach the area shortly after our departure from New York Harbor. Those three days spent in 30- to 40-foot waves and Force 9 wind provided memories to last a lifetime, and taught a lot of lessons about ocean sailing. Forethought and planning has prevented a reoccurrence of that incredible experience ever since.

Ed Mapes owns Voyager Ocean Passages (www.offshorevoyager.com)and conducts offshore training at sea.”


I had my own experience one winter as I left Norfork Va on Dec 26 to sail down to the Virgin Island. I knew there was a strong cold front coming, but I figured if I could get out past the Gulf Stream I could surf on down to the south. That cold front was a lot more intense than I suspected, and we really did some surfing in my wood ketch monohull at the time. There were some scarey times, and there were several yachts and one ship sunk during the storm's intense low pressure area that passed just north of Bermuda. Ahhh, just found a posting I made on this same subject about 10 years ago:
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/11593-post6.html

When I originally saw notice that they were sailing that new 42' cat around Long Island in that really nasty weather we were having just around Christmas I thought they needed their heads examined. Then when I heard that they planned on delivery her down to the island in this unusually stormy weather pattern being delivered across the east coast of USA this year, I could only hope they would sneak in between some of these low pressure freaks. I would have advised them to wait for spring conditions at least.


Rogue waves in relatively light wind conditions
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/roguewaves.html


***********************************************
What's my point here?

Yes, the ocean conditions that you see the crew being rescued from the Alpha Cat from don't look that menacing at that time, BUT they are in a zone that can become extremely bad in a short time,...perhaps just a day or less until the next BIG low pressure area arrives off the east coast of the USA. And as we have seen this year there are some considerable big ones coming thru.

Now imagine yourself sitting on that vessel weighing your options.
1) You are not going to make ANY progress back to the east coast of the USA.

2) You are going to get blown further out to sea, or you may get capsized. In either of those cases you are going to be even further away from rescue possibilities. Maybe consider rescue while conditions permit it?, ...rather than waiting another likely 7 days?

3) If you are able to get the boat moving in some westerly direction, can you try to get to Bermuda, or in the next case do you have enough provisioning onboard of water and food to make the extended trip to the Caribbean?

4) One guy at least (the owner) is 69 years old. At that age your stamina is greatly diminished even if you are a healthy person. I don't know the ages of the other crew, but I don't think they were youngsters either.

5) Is the value of saving that vessel worth my life? Can I spend time in an overturned vessel?


These are just a few things that were likely discussed by them prior to making that rescue call. Put yourself in their place, if you are even capably of really experiencing it, and see how you might evaluate it before you just throw out some 'boasting' posting.


And lastly, I would never go offshore on a trip again that could possible get into such a predicament without a PARACHUTE anchor !! If all else fails I can at least 'anchor' myself to the sea, bows facing the sea, and absorb just about the worst the sea can throw at me. I know many will bring up drogues of some sort, but I see them as a supplemental resource, not the primary survival one.
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 11:24   #276
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Interesting observations. I don't think they 'broke off' but rather the rudder shafts got bent,...rather badly. And from the looks of the size of those rudders I can see that happening rather easily it they were thrown over rather abruptly

If you read charlie's blog . . . one shaft bent, and the other rudder broke all its internal webbing and the blade just spun on the shaft. And the installation inside was comically bad. My take is the rudders were bad quality all around.

Charlie also does not give much to the 'abruptly thrown back' story. He says they were fore reaching (not that fast) and stopped by a wave. he says perhaps pushed backwards a little . . . but he definitely does not support the story of being violently thrown back or sideways.



To the contrary, I thoroughly believe in these parachute anchors as the ultimate 'sit back and let the storm blow itself out' . agreed you don't want to have a failure in a portion of the rigging

After the incident, the boat lay a hull just fine, quietly and comfortably. So, they did not need a para anchor. There do not appear to have been massive breaking waves. The rudders, windows and engine/gensets simply don't appear to have been engineered well enough for an offshore gale.

And para-anchors are in fact hard on rudders. The boat will get driven back as slack and elasticity is taken out of the rode. But rudders should be designed and built to a high enough standard to generally be able to take it.


Don't understand you? They were going south, and the northly wind would have pushed then south.

Look at the weather map . . . they did NOT have northerly winds! They had southerly winds shifting to west after the front
Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
I think they were a little more north of your indication. There were some coordinates on one of the helo videos I believe

yes, just looked and about one degree further north than I placed the X, but that does not change the weather much.
........
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 11:24   #277
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,142
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveslide View Post
In the new article, Doane states all electrical power was lost. The boat lost steering, propulsion AND all electrical power. The build blog says it had a generator... that must have become one of the many useless systems.

I think it is a seriously flawed build if all of these systems fail in the same incident.
Look at how many boats have their generators and engines in the same compartments,...and in many instances in the sterns of the vessel where the steering gear is. Water coming aboard can do a lot of damage very quickly.
__________________
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 11:49   #278
Marine Service Provider
 
CHARTER MAGIC's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NE Florida
Boat: Fountaine Pajot,Bahia 46, Magic Inspiration
Posts: 59
Send a message via Skype™ to CHARTER MAGIC
alpha 42 by aero yacht

the video says it all, US built $500K 42 driven by Sail editor.

Portsmouth man rescued from sailboat | Local News - WMUR Home
__________________
CHARTER MAGIC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 12:17   #279
Registered User
 
1ercru's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Aboard
Boat: Leopard 47 owner's version
Posts: 73
Re: alpha 42 by aero yacht

You are about 270 (and counting posts) late to the party. Come join us in: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ry-118899.html
__________________
1ercru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 12:24   #280
Registered User
 
Dave852's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tavernier, Fl
Boat: Outremer 50
Posts: 657
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave852
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

From Charlie's account "Unwilling to admit defeat, we thought we might have better luck sailing the boat now that we understood exactly what was wrong with the rudders. We were also now willing to raise the mainsail again in the much calmer conditions. So up went the main, and we tried every possible combination we could think of, playing the sails against each other and the bent rudder, playing the engine against the rudder in both forward and reverse, but no matter what we tried the essential dynamic remained the same: with no sails up the starboard engine ruled, and the boat just turned to port; with sails up and drawing, in whatever configuration, the bent rudder ruled and the boat would only turn to starboard."

So he says one combination would turn them to port and another to starboard. I did not read of any attempt to use a drogue. In theory a drogue would have allowed them to go straight as it appears both rudders were not locked off center.
Dave852 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 13:24   #281
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave852 View Post
From Charlie's account "Unwilling to admit defeat, we thought we might have better luck sailing the boat now that we understood exactly what was wrong with the rudders. We were also now willing to raise the mainsail again in the much calmer conditions. So up went the main, and we tried every possible combination we could think of, playing the sails against each other and the bent rudder, playing the engine against the rudder in both forward and reverse, but no matter what we tried the essential dynamic remained the same: with no sails up the starboard engine ruled, and the boat just turned to port; with sails up and drawing, in whatever configuration, the bent rudder ruled and the boat would only turn to starboard."

So he says one combination would turn them to port and another to starboard. I did not read of any attempt to use a drogue. In theory a drogue would have allowed them to go straight as it appears both rudders were not locked off center.
You'd think there would be some combination of sail and engine that would have them nearly going straight, wouldn't you?
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 13:26   #282
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 43 & S2 6.9
Posts: 963
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

If they had dive gear, could they have not gone under the boat and cut off or disconnected the rudder(s)?
__________________
maytrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 13:36   #283
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,432
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Since everyone is safe, I have been reading this for educational value, and entertainment (all of the bickering), but after reading Charlies story, I must say that the original report of stopped dead and violently thrown backwards sound like a lot of hog wash. If it was a violent stop I am sure there would be injuries such as bruised or broken ribs, wrists etc. A dead stop at 8 knots is enough to throw everybody on a boat across a cabin, or against the helm or whatever else gets in the way of a moving body. There has been no mention of anything like that, and everybody seems fine and healthy(thank heaven), so if the motion was only moderate, why did it have such a massive rudder failure???? It seems like the builder is spinning this as fast as a political party that is caught in a scandal. All of us are lucky that we have such a well trained Coast Guard. Just my thoughts. ______Grant.
__________________
gjordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 13:45   #284
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

I don't thing these guys abandoned ship because insurance was going to pay up for the boat. I'm guessing from all the problems they had Alpha Yachts is going to be building them a new one for FREE. Like holy crap can anything else have broken?

Not putting the through bolt into the rudder stock is inexcusable. It's obvious they were designed for them or why would you drill a hole through the stock and the arm? Welding the frames onto the stock in the rudder so poorly that they break? Leaks from windows, steps blown off, battens coming out, ropes parting, electrical problems with both engines and the generator, and more all in two days time with moderately severe weather.

I'm sorry but I also can't rationalize their decisions on the repairs. If the one rudder was spinning why not pop it off, drill some holes in it, and re-install. Or, tie it off in a straight position. The then could drop the bent rudder and try to make headway. For such an experienced crew, they didn't seem to know what the heck to do.

Am I not correct that if your starter is broken you can start the good motor, take it off, re-install it on the other motor and start that one? What could possibly be wrong with a charging system from both motors?

You have to give Gunther some credit though as he is the one to go in the water to inspect the rudders and the last to abandon ship.
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2014, 13:56   #285
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 43 & S2 6.9
Posts: 963
re: Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
If it was a violent stop I am sure there would be injuries such as bruised or broken ribs, wrists etc. A dead stop at 8 knots is enough to throw everybody on a boat across a cabin, or against the helm or whatever else gets in the way of a moving body.
That is a great point. And they aren't saying they stopped, they are saying the boat was pushed backwards, so it's not a dead stop, but a complete reversal of direction which would be even more powerful...

Does raise some questions. Hopefully we'll get answers at some point.
__________________

__________________
maytrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Aeroyacht Alpha 42, Alpha 42, Gregor Tarjan, offshore, rescue, yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.